A couple of newbie questions

@darthdomo did a great job answering you.

Welcome to the forum @mousey
When I read your post, it was clear you have done a lot of research, and it is super tricky to get an understanding of EVERYTHING, especially when you are new to all of it.

I have a quick suggestion for your car, but can you just clarify,

Is it a proximity fob
a key fob lock / unlock ( if this one, how many buttons do you have? )

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I feel like I haven’t even learned the tip of the iceberg with this. I’m so glad that I am even barely grasping this haha. I am working through Q’s for darth - definitely super informative. So glad for the warm welcome and information :relaxed:. There’s definitely a LOT to take in and now I’m gonna have to learn car modding on top of it lol.

How do I tell which one it is? I have a lock, unlock, alarm, and remote start button. But, I never have to touch my key to lock/unlock or start the car. I just have to be near the car or in the car with the key on my person - there is a button on my door handle that controls the locks when the key is near and I have push to start inside.


PERFECT ( It is a RFID Proximity Door Lock Access Control System )

@turbo2ltr has an awesome solution for you

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Oh man, this is incredible, thank you!!! I already have some ideas for how I would adjust the build. I think I need to spend some time really learning about the tech and reading project walkthroughs like this to really get a better understanding of what is and isn’t possible. I imagine that the reason we don’t just throw the fobs into us is that they’re powered, which would be unnecessarily risky and probably way too bulky to work. Thank you so much for this though, it’s a perfect jumping-off point. Other than browsing the top builds on here are there any other newbie resources/websites you’d point to learn as much about this as possible? I should probably also spend time researching learning about non-body-mod specific RFID. I have a basic understanding of RFID but I’ve never actually experimented with RFID.

Thank you so much for your help with this!! Y’all are so nice here. I know that might be weird to say but there really aren’t too many spaces like this that are as friendly to newcomers.

That’s great to hear.

To answer you questions I would suggest you read through the
Info sections
here on the forum.

Plus jump on the Dangerous things You Tube Channel, There are some good info vids on there like these ones.

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  1. Okay so, my goodness, thank you so much for this. I wish I could like your post twice. I feel like my main misunderstanding is that I was expecting the same sort of RFID that my car key had to be in these chips. I clearly need to learn more about RFID frequencies/how they work. I have a basic understanding that there are like 3 different types of RFIDs, but I didn’t put together that all three aren’t the types we’re working with here and I hadn’t been taught about frequencies.

The car RFID being proprietary raised such a red flag to me. I have been running into a lot of things that are like “just copy the RFID over” referring to house FOBs and name badges, and that did not feel right at all for car keyfobs but I couldn’t find anything to support that thought. Someone linked a similar project below which has the proximity FOB which I think is very close to what my finished goal is going to looks like. I will absolutely be following your posts and will keep an eye out for that post, thank you. Mine is the push-to-start but I’m sure there I will learn a lot from your post anyway, especially if I ever need an old-school mod.

  1. Okay I think I’m going to spring for the NExT because honestly, that makes a lot of sense. I know I will eventually want to add things onto it and I’m gonna be mad at myself if I don’t choose open-source tech. And yeah - one implant is better than two, especially if I decide to get the xLED which would make it 3, and that seems like a lot for one hand.

  2. Okay - so what I’m getting from this is the NExT is really the better option, but if I’m not doing anything too heavy and want the lights the xSIID isn’t a bad option? Other than the light inside I’m not sure I quite see any benefit of the xSIID. Or, is it the opposite and would the xSIID allow for more if I do go deep? I’m very beginner right now but I am absolutely wanting to get to an advanced place.

Regarding the lights - I am having two lines of thoughts on this one right now. I’ve kinda been brought down from the idea stage to the reality stage and have realized that, until the tech is available, the long-term light just is not a thing that happens - even if I could get it to light up for an hour, that’s going to burn out the light so fast that it’s going to make it not worth it. If I implemented something in my car where all I had to do was touch my hand to a sensor - that would put me close enough for it to light up for a few seconds, which might just be as close as I’m going to get right now. For a little more flash, I could add an RFID reader that doesn’t do anything but trigger the light on the shifter. Those few seconds would be practical and still very cool. Having the xLED would also help with making sure that I am hitting the right spot, so it’s not useless either. Do you use an xLED or do you use something else?

I’m kind of just thinking out loud at this point - but how modifyable is the NExT? Could I get an xLED, open the NExT case, attach the xLED to the xNT portion and write a little program that’s like “when triggered, keep light on for 30 seconds”? Or is it completely sealed and unopenable? Sealing it again for safe implantation would also be a concern. And then if I need to replace the light I’d have to take the whole implant out so that’s really not practical at all. I might be greatly underestimating the lifespan of this LED, though.

  1. Thank you for the resource. It’s definitely cool but I think even aesthetically it’s not exactly what I’m looking for. I know the vibe and looks aren’t everything and the better tech is my first priority, but I’m also a sucker for the aesthetic.

I think I’m definitely leaning more towards NExT right now but I am still bouncing around the idea of the xSIID. Two more bothers: One - I feel dumb asking this question, but what programming language do you use for this? I’m most familiar with scripting languages and have an intermediate understanding of C++, learning a new one would be fun. I just want to make sure I dive into something that’s going to give me the best flexibility and control. Also, you mentioned that I could read/write with my phone - is there a specific app or way of doing that? I’d definitely get the Proxmark 3 either way, wouldn’t want to risk it with a blue cloner. I think I’m more just confused about what (if any) software to get alongside it on either phone or comp. I have access to linux, win10, and android. I feel like I’m asking you to hold my hand with that question, so I apologize for that, this info is just very not clear on the website and I am really bad at search queries. I have seen one post that says get the DT app but I don’t see DT mention that app anywhere on their website.

Thank you again for your help I appreciate this SO MUCH.

Good choice, It is a great first implant :+1: … or anytime really

I see @darthdomo answering you, so I’ll leave him to it

FYI I updated the links in my post above, incase you missed it

Thank you for the resources I will absolutely immerse myself! I know it’s just going to take a lot of time and research and understanding to get to where I am trying to be right now. My ambition always races far ahead of my comprehension and skill.

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Good choice, It is a great first implant :+1: … or anytime really

Awesome, I feel really good about that choice. I did see your links, bookmarking them for reference

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(I’m gonna be addressing a lot of things out of order, sorry about that)
Okay so, there’s a lot to respond to here. First, I’ll go over some more general info, since you want to learn. One of the biggest things to clarify, is info on frequencies. In the world of implants, there are two that matter generally, LF, and HF. Low frequency, high frequency. Specifically, 125kHz for low frequency, and 13.56MHz for high frequency. There are others in use, for instance, 134.2 kHz is used for pet implants, and there are UHF RFID tags used mainly for parking passes and for inventory management in large warehouses. Modern phones use 13.56MHz high frequency. Now, another important distinction is RFID vs. NFC. RFID is the general term for the overarching technology, LF HF or UHF, doesn’t matter. NFC is a set of communication protocols used by some 13.56MHz devices, including phones.

The xNT is a HF implant, the xEM is an LF implant, and the NExT is literally just the two of them shoved into one implant. Both sides of the NExT are independant. The xSIID is also HF.

A term that you’ll hear thrown around a lot here is NDEF and NDEF records. NDEF stands for NFC Data Exchange Format. Basically, a high-frequency NFC implant (with some exceptions) is essentially just a big block of storage. Within that storage, there are parts that are read-only, and can’t be modified from the factory. This includes the serial number (also called the UID) of most NFC chips, like the xNT or the NExT. They are both actually based on the same physical chip, the NTAG216.

Other parts of that storage are writable by the user. In almost all cases, these parts are used to hold NDEF records. NDEF records are information that is readable by a phone or other NFC device. That’s a generic term, but it can be a lot of things. Generally, the most common types of NDEF records used are things like website URLs, contact info via a format called vCard, or even information to connect to a certain wifi network. This is how most of us use our implants with phones, is to share information with others.

On all NTAG based implants, only up to 888 bytes of storage space are able to be used for NDEF records, which is what 99% of people will use them for.

On the xSIID, it is based on the NTAG I2C series, which has 2 kilobytes of storage. However, as stated, only 888 bytes can be used for NDEF storage. The remaining space can be used for user data. What I meant earlier about using the space via your own programming, is that, you can use actual NFC shell commands (getting decently complex at that point) to put data into that space, and retrieve it. This is out of the realm for a lot of users, and for a lot of people, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to do so. However, it’s there if someone wants it. @DonFire did a good post a bit ago about achieving this, here is that thread. Don’t worry if that overwhelms you a bit, it’s the opposite of beginner stuff.

Because of this, from a user perspective, there is nothing different about using an xSIID compared to an xNT or the HF side of a NExT, but that extra space is there if needed.

Regarding opening up an implant, that’s 10000000% a no-no. They’re sealed soda-lime glass, filled with resin. Even if you could open it up, there’s nothing you could do with it. As I mentioned, NTAG chips are essentially just a big block of storage that can be accessed. They can’t run code really, they’re not microcontrollers. There are some minor exceptions to this, because of course there are, but they don’t really matter for the scope of this discussion. Basically, other than writing and reading data, consider most HF implants unmodifiable in that aspect. Picture them like a tiny internal flash drive to store useful info on to share with others.

Regarding the DT app, that is only ever required if you decide to get an xNT. Basically, you can set a password on an NTAG216 chip, which is needed to change configuration options. The reason why this is important, is without it, someone could make the ENTIRE chip read-only, making it forever unchangeable. On the NExT, the HF side is already password protected from the factory, but on the xNT, there’s no password. The DT app merely adds a specified password to the xNT, to protect it.

Another thing to clear up, is implant notation, because you see it a lot. There’s a great post here, that you can read to understand what I mean when I say locations.

My primary implant is an xSIID, in position R0. I also have a NExT in position L0 (and a Spark 2 in L2).

So, this is why I like the xSIID as my primary implant. Due to it having an LED built-in, I can use it to find good positioning on any reader. Just move my hand until it starts lighting up.

However, this is far from required. What a lot of people do, is have a seperate xLED implanted next to another implant. xLEDs come in both HF and LF versions, and that determines what field type makes them light up. So, if someone has an HF implant, like an xNT, they might put a HF xLED next to that. This gives you lights/blinkies (as we call them) next to any implant you want, and they act as a convenient field detector (like you said, makes sure you hit the right spot). Generally the guideline is 5mm spacing between implants.

This brings up another topic that’s important to know, given what I just said. Crosstalk is something that can happen, when you have two implants of the same frequency next to each other. For instance, you wouldn’t want a HF implant in L1 and an HF implant in L2. If they’re too close, they can interfere with each other. Same goes for LF implants. The major exception to this rule is xLEDs. Since they don’t “talk” as it were, they don’t cause cross-talk on their respective frequencies.

While it’s not relevant to NTAG based implants, in a lot of implant and access control work, the two most common programming languages you’ll see is C and Python. This is for doing microcontroller programming (such as the work I’m doing on my car project), simple desktop apps to read from implants, etc. C for low level stuff, Python for anything high-level that needs good libraries (like nfcpy).

Regarding software for a proxmark, the software and firmware is completely open-source, it’s a command-line utility. Linux would be by far the best platform to use, but windows is fine as well.

Now, LF stuff… this is where things get tricky. Basically, the chip used in the xEM and the NExT is the T5577. This chip is used to emulate several different card types. This is why you can clone various LF credentials to it. LF is generally only used to pull a UID, but that’s simplifying a bit. There’s no NDEF records, no user storage, nothing. It’s purely for access control.

Now, onto access control. There are essentially two types of access control, to put it simply. UID-based, and encrypted/key-based. For UID systems, it verifies based on the serial number of a chip, which is linked in the system to a particular person. Basically, “Okay, UID 80484382 just scanned, that links to Jim Johnson, who is indeed allowed in this area, unlock the door”. Or, for something like an RFID safe, it’s literally just a list of valid UIDs to accept.

With key-based systems, it’s a lot more complex, but for the most part, consider them non-viable for cloning or anything. The most popular chips in this area are the DESFire EV1 and DESFire EV2.

One more note about UID-based systems, is the xM1 implant. Basically, the xM1 is a HF implant, that allows you to change the UID/serial number on. This allows you to “clone”(for lack of a better term) an HF card on some systems. If the system checks literally nothing but serial number, you can use the xM1 and set the UID to that of the target card. Just thought I’d put that out there, in-case you weren’t aware of that as an option.

You can definitely fit 3 implants in one hand by the way, especially if one is an xLED. I’ve got 2 in my left hand, and an xLED doesn’t really “matter” in terms of implant space, since for most people it almost combines in utility with another implant. I also got all 3 of mine put in at once, and it was no biggie. Wouldn’t fear the number of implants, as long as it’s what’s useful to you. They’re much less consequential once they’re actually in.

You can also definitely add a coil to light up your implants. It’s again, a bit tricky, and there’s a few ways to approach it, but this massive thread I mentioned earlier has a lot of info in that regard.

Also, since this comment is VERY long at this point, I will say, the search function is really good on this forum, and if you search “learn” and “resources” it’ll bring up a ton more than what I mentioned. Don’t mean that in a bad way at all, it’s just that if I try to just restate everything here, I’ll just butcher it :wink:


Ooooo, I got mentioned


@Pilgrimsmaster, I saw you replying, keep going :joy:

Haha, I got distracted …

Awww, Now I feel bad, You @DonFire are an awesome resource, Have I not yet mentioned you yet?


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Idk, maybe (actually, you have, 4 times in total, now 5 :stuck_out_tongue:) - I saw you replying, if you’re responding to @mousey keep at it, I’ve got a few things I’ll put together as well in response, but it might not be the same

I thought I’d actually contribute to this thread :joy:

Sooooo, LEDs actually have a pretty long lifespan as long as you drive them at reasonable voltages / currents and keep them ‘cool’ (yes, body temperature isn’t ideal, but it’s not 70 degrees C) - should we get a way to power LEDs for a while (e.g. beta-voltaic cells or supercaps) it would probably be ok, but not super bright. Commercial LEDs are driven pretty hard, for efficiency, cost, brightness and it doesn’t hurt that it builds in obsolescence.

Note its not coming back, but there was once tritium implants which would glow for a long time (6 - 12 year half life). There are some safety concerns though…

Fair warning - the more powerful / newer / better chips (including the one in the upcoming Apex line) have documentation / specifications under NDA, and there’s no way around that… it’s up to you as to how much that matters to you. Personally, it annoys me, but it’s down to the chip manufacturer (NXP) not Dangerous Things, and I want the functionality / security, so I will be buying.

Something to consider - I have both and xSIID and xLED in the same position (L0) :joy: - I like my blinky! Here’s a picture:

For Android, the most common apps are NXP TagInfo and TagWriter, and NFCTools.

Honestly, like @darthdomo said, the NExT is a great chip to begin with, mainly because it’s two implants in one. You may want to have a look at the implant bundles if you also want a spark… the red or white bundle could be quite suitable. However, make sure you understand any limitations of the Spark, because there will be a new / more powerful Vivokey implant series (the Apex) coming out sometime soon(ish).

Oh, and like others have said - if you want to do much LF (i.e. the xEM side of the NExT), get a PM3 easy - seriously, its so much better / more powerful than the bluecloners, and it’s also suitable for a xM1 if you decide to get one down the line.

One last thing - if you want to figure out what your current ID cards / badges use, do a full scan on them with the NXP TagInfo app - if they don’t scan, they’re LF (probably xEM compatible), if they do it will try to identify the chip used. If you post pictures of the scan / tag, we can often make recommendations (blur the UID though)

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This is so awesome thank you so much!! It is definitely a lot to absorb but the way you’ve explained it makes it so much easier to understand. I have reread this a few times over the past few days and I am still taking stuff in, so I super duper appreciate all of this information.

So xSIID by itself would be HF only with a light, and NExT is LF and HF. If you don’t mind my asking - what do you use your implants for? What were the main deciding factors in using xSIID for one thing and NExT for another? Or did it just boil down to the LED?

Just to make sure I’m fully understanding the xSIID …The DT page says " there are no apps available that properly identify and write to the entire user memory" and “larger data which must extend into the second memory sector will fail”. I feel like this is a misrepresentation and that DT is talking about the memory like all 2k should be NDEF capable. The DT website almost makes it sound like that extra kb of storage is obsolete cause there are no apps that can write NDEF to it. I assume that if you utilize the storage in a different context like you said, this isn’t necessarily true. If I’m understanding xSIID and your info combined with the info on the website fully…The xSIID has 888 bytes of read/write NDEF memory capability, just like xNT. There’s also an extra 1kb of user data. You can’t use a computer or phone app to access the personal storage BUT you could write a little program onto the 888 bytes to read/write to that storage? The data wouldn’t be NDEF but it could be accessible and useable? If I’ve completely misunderstood feel free to just slap my hand and tell me to do research lol, knowing whether or not I am on the right track is the big thing. The linked article is definitely high level but it is also very helpful. Good to see that PGP is also not too much info to use.

Could you put xEM and xSIID in the same position since they’re different levels? Almost like NExT with xLED both in, say, R0 - but using xSIID and xEM?

Gotcha yeah that’s definitely a no-no lol. I thought it was in a little glass tablet you could just pop open if you need to but I am not about to cut through resin… Definitely makes sense about the connection - NExT isn’t a connection of the two it’s just shoved them together into one implant. It’s not like they can be wired to each other. The flash drive comparison helps a lot and really clarifies the picture. Not so much computers, just data holders with RFID capability.

Yeah, I can see how xtalk would definitely be a problem. I’m familiar with that on an ethernet level. I have a lot of experience with computer-based technology. I know python and have seen/can sort of read C so that wouldn’t be too daunting. Having that experience and knowledge is definitely great but I can see how it’s clouded my understanding because I was definitely looking at this like it’s all just microcontrollers instead of flash drives. Which chip are you doing microcontroller work with? I assume the xSIID?

And interesting. So, in theory, I could do a coil if I want my implant to light up when I’m within a certain range of something, it’s like the xLED version of a reader. I am absolutely going to read through that and see what’s possible, just skimmed so far. I’m very down for the tricky stuff - I just am very bad about wrapping my head around the entry-level stuff with pretty much everything I do. I will be the absolute first to admit that I am awful at initial research LOL, there is no offense taken at all. I don’t know what it is about new knowledge but my brain just goes “I don’t know the advanced keywords to use so we can’t search or learn anything.” My brain expects me to have high-level knowledge of things I’ve never researched and when I don’t (because who does) it’s like I forget how to do a search for any basic information. Like I’m looking for words in my head that I know exist but haven’t learned yet. This thread has been super helpful though because you all have given me SO MUCH to go on and look for (thank you so much again). Also yeah I need to write down the words “learn” and “resources” and “beginner info” etc and put them in front of me any time I start a new hobby so I remember what to search lol, I really appreciate you taking the time to write this out for me!

yes actually… I will fix this on the site…

  1. Yep, xSIID is HF with a light, and NExT is LF and HF. So, I use my implants for logging into my PC, sharing contact info, unlocking the safe I converted to be NFC (details can be found in my history), and soon, starting my car.

The main reasons I use the xSIID mainly is that the light looks cool, and it happens to be in my dominant hand. That’s really about it. I don’t use anything LF for practical reasons at the moment, so all of my access-control needs work with both the NExT and the xSIID.

  1. (amal already responded, I’ll skip this one)

  2. Yes, you can. Again, gotta keep distance, usually 5mm minimum, and not everyone has the space in that spot for it, but there’s no technical issues there. I know a few people who have done that with the xNT and the xEM, to get a kind of faux-NExT.

  3. For my purposes, any ISO 14443A tag is all I need, I only work with UID-based authentication. Essentially, ISO 14443A is a standard for HF RFID communication and authentication, used in the majority of HF RFID chips on the market. You don’t really need to know the specifics, but the NExT, xNT, xSIID, Spark 2, are all ISO 14443A. It’s the HF standard that is the most popular, therefore it has the most support, and it’s easy to find RFID modules and libraries that work with it. I mainly use my xSIID for my homebuilt stuff, but again, that’s just out of convenience. The LED acts as a field detector to allow me to easily line things up, and it’s on my dominant hand. All 3 of my implants are read the same.
    If you want to look more into doing your own RFID projects via microcontrollers, I really love working with Arduino platform stuff, specifically the Uno (based on the Atmel ATMega 328P). They’re cheap, decently reliable, and more than enough power for doing homemade RFID projects. For the actual RFID communication side of things, the PN532 is a very popular NFC (HF RFID) controller, and it’s very easy to work with using an Arduino. Multiple companies make breakout boards, which include everything needed (which is a lot). They just connect right up to a raspberry pi, arduino, etc.
    I tend to buy this model for the price, but DT sells them on their store as well, and the reliablity + customer service is gonna be way better. Would definitely recommend the DT route if you can afford it, plus their shipping is quick.

I’m hoping I managed to answer everything, feel free to let me know if you have any more questions.

As @DonFire (6) said

This will come in handy

Ok to fix it first i needed to explain it…

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