Difficulty implanting Apex Flex

[mavant]

Today, I took a first stab (no pun intended) at implanting my apex flex at hand-position-5 (knife-blade of hand).
It was… less than successful.
To be clear, I was not attempting to implant this in myself - I had a doctor friend make the attempt, but we weren’t able to get enough penetration with the 5G needle to actually fit the chip into place.

I’m wondering:

1. Are there written procedures for this? We found a brief video of part of the implant process, but nothing in detail, so it’s unclear if we left an important step out.
2. How much force should we expect to need to apply here? Am I just a wimp / should have asked that we push harder?

Immediately prior to this we did an x-series implant at hand-position-0, which was basically painless; I’m not sure whether the difference in sensation is expected or is an indicator that we did something wrong.

[Eriequiet]

@mavant

How much force should we expect to need to apply here? Am I just a wimp / should have asked that we push harder?

I am not a body piercer; but my experience was it takes a good amount of force to fully “break through”

Flex format rfid payment implant, flex needle install

@mavant

I had a doctor friend make the attempt, but we weren’t able to get enough penetration with the 5G needle

My 2 cents, a lot of people think doctors are magically experts at everything regarding the body…
A lot of time nurses are the ones actually getting their hands dirty, and doctors are in the books

I wouldn’t go to an oncologist for a broken leg,

I personally wouldn’t go to a family friend that’s a doctor for body modification things…

A simple x series injector? Sure I guess because a lot of people can even manage it themselves… it’s not very involved or intense… but some still mess it up

Go to a piercer for piercing things is my advice

[Satur9]

Also the skin on the knife edge is very thick and the fascia is not as loose as it is on other parts of the body. The knife edge is actually not a recommended install location for flex implants because it puts a lot of stress on the implant and it will inevitably fail

[singlerider]

I got mine implanted yesterday. Here are some photos.

Note the smaller needle that was required next to the big one. The Vivokey Flex in this photo was taken out to make space for the new Apex Flex.

Installers in California

I ended up going with Body Exotic in San Jose. I’m very happy with the results. He took my old Vivokey Flex out and swapped in my Apex Flex.

[Ben_bionic]

1. Blade of hand isn’t recommended
2. needle lube is your friend
3. the guy who did mine flattened the needle, might give that a go
4. skin is hard and you’ve got to push! Side of the hand is thick and doesn’t like to stretch, I’ve hand a number of implants in my right blade and it’s always difficult and scars worse than anywhere else.
5. if you already tried with that needle get a new one before you try again.
6. using a scalpel and scissors or tissue separator is also on option if the doctor is more familiar with normal surgical tissue pocket methods.

[invalid_signal]

I got an xG3 in my right knife edge. The piercer had to use a good amount of force to get the needle in. I’ll attach a vid below.
I tried to self install another xG3 in my left knife edge, and I basically just stood there for 10 minutes trying to push the needle in to no avail. It was kind of embarrassing since I was live streaming it on Dangerous Discord lol
Definitely think about using an experienced installer, and a different location for the flex implant.

[mavant]

Thanks for the advice, everyone.
I’m going to send the chip back to be resterilized before trying again.

I’m a little surprised to see multiple comments about knife-blade being a bad location for flex implants: I was under the impression this was the preferred location for them!
I’ll go back and read all the threads I can find about flex install locations, but for those of you who mentioned this is not an ideal location, was there a specific thread or incident which led you to that conclusion? And is there current consensus on what would be preferable? I’m extremely leery of any implant location resting directly over a tendon, which knocks out most of the hand locations, but if 5 and 11 are worse I’d be glad for the knowledge.

(If I DO end up trying location 5 again I’ll either flatten the needle or use a scalpel. Also, this time definitely a numbing agent.)

[amal]

@Ben_bionic

bladder of hand

[singlerider]

@mavant

Also, this time definitely a numbing agent

I’ve never had any numbing agents applied during my installs. You’ll be alright.

[Backpackingvet]

@Eriequiet

I personally wouldn’t go to a family friend that’s a doctor for body modification things…

Doctor or Physician?

I would, but I would want them to use tools they are comfortable with. Why use a needle when they could use a scalpel and skin spreader?

Idk, I reference some in my family. My wife is the only one who installed on me, and it was way too deep. I had a friend install my spark, and she didn’t go well, and when she pulled the needle out, it just popped out the needle.

Lesson learned.

@Ben_bionic

using a scalpel and scissors or tissue separator is also on option if the doctor is more familiar with normal surgical tissue pocket methods.

I see you acknowledged this down below @mavant

@singlerider

@mavant

Also, this time definitely a numbing agent

I’ve never had any numbing agents applied during my installs. You’ll be alright.

My 2 cents,

I plan to use injectable lido for my titan installs, and apex flex install. I plan to do all 3 in one go.

I know lido burns a bit going in, but realistically, I know I can handle that pain.

I also know I have a bad vasovagal response and pass out for needles.

So I just want to lessen my chance of passing out. I hope the lido, combined with a sterile field dressing, will dehumanize it for me.

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@mavant

I’m a little surprised to see multiple comments about knife-blade being a bad location for flex implants: I was under the impression this was the preferred location for them!

In my personal opinion, it is not a bad location…for the older flex, and current FlexM1

and maybe, the FlexNT

For me, I think these Flexies have far more flex to them and are more forgiving when flexing through the fulcrum than the newer flex PCB can flex

If you simply look at the design, you can see why

* not to scale

The PCB Flex has been tested under flexion, but not to the extremes that would be expected in the knife edge, so it is perfectly fine for other flat locations. It is a PCB after all, remembering the word flex refers to polymer material, NOT the antenna.

I fully planned to install my APEX Flex in my knife edge, back when it was looking like it would be a copper-style antenna. They are not, so I did not.

I know there have been copper flexies installed in the knife edge, but I don’t know of any failures, that is not to say there haven’t been, I just can’t recall any, but, I know of PCB Flexies being installed in the knife edge and a couple of failures, that being said, the hand still needs to be on the larger side to take a copper flexie as the copper flexies are longer than the PCB flexies.

My further observations, and not a fair side-by-side comparison, so take this for what it is worth.
The read range / coupling is noticeably better between my FlexM1 than my ApexFlex and FlexDF2
HOWEVER, as stated, this is not a fair comparison, due to the individual chip’s power and processing requirements. merely an observation, but I do have a test I want to do to “prove” the difference.

DISCLAIMER
I do not have, nor have I ever had a Copper nor PCB Flex in my knife edge, so to reiterate, this is all just my personal opinion, for what it’s worth.

The knife edge is still a viable location for me with a Copper Flex, even though I have little girly hands.
I will document it if/when I ever do

[Midoriya]

hmm sorry I may be out of the loop (weren’t here for some time), but how did you get apex? is it out already?

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@Midoriya

is it out already?

Yes and No

Not officially

Amal isn’t making it publicly known…well he’s not pushing the sales…

I would imagine, if one were to Google

“Dangerous Apex Flex Buy”

You may end up with a search result such as this