New to implants, trying to understand the differences

[pomtom44]

Hi all
Been humming and haring (is that even how its spelt) about getting some implants
Finally managed to convince the wife to let me get some
and for her to get one as well to unlock the front door (once we get a RFID front door lock)
But im sure other uses would come up as we dive deeper into it

Iv been doing some reading, and understand the difference between NFC and RFID and such, but getting stuck on the differences in the products sold

EG theres 4 different 13.56 NFC chips
2 RFID chips
A joint chip which is the two cheaper chips combined
And a SIID NFC chip with LED

What are the differences between all the chips? Different manufacturers? or are the usages different as well, eg some NFC chips will only work in some situations, and others wont?

Sorry if its already been covered before, I had a quick look though FAQ’s and other linked guides but nothing i could see covers these questions

Thanks

[pac]

If you want to use it on your front door lock, you will want to determine what kind of card is being used to unlock it. Since you haven’t purchased a rfid door lock, this makes things easier.

Chip compatiblity matrix

referencing this, you should find a variety of different locks for your door and which card type they use, and by extension which implant you would need. the door lock section starts at column BF.

If you have a particular lock in mind that isn’t listed feel free to post a model number and we can help you out

[pomtom44]

The door lock was just an example of one use case we would be using them for.

My question was more about the differences in the implants sold, which your comment didnt quite answer directly?
EG the xSLX vs xNT vs xDF2, all are NFC and have pretty different price points, so whats the difference between them apart from the chip internals?
same with the xEM and xHT?

[pac]

Despite operating on the same frequency they are different chip technologies and have a wide variety of different uses/applications/functionalities. I am sure someone else will be able to explain these differences better than I can. But for example, some have more storage space, comply to different iso standards, or have the ability to preform cryptography.

[pomtom44]

ah ok, so some chips might work with some readers and others might not depending on the technology in the reader?

[pac]

correct! and since you don’t have a lock yet you can be sure to get one that is compatible, so you aren’t stuck with a mismatched lock and implant

[pomtom44]

Looking at the chart you linked before the majority of them are either all green or all red so more then likely it would work for most types?

So if I wanted to get the most out of the implants, and I was doing it the other way, eg find the uses for the implant, rather than find the implant to match the use

the NExT is a NFC / LF RFID in one, so put that in one hand
and then get a xM1 which is a HF RFID and that covers all 3 types of chip?
(Minus the LED aspect)

[Eriequiet]

@pomtom44

that covers all 3 types of chip?

Nope sadly

For instance the xslx you mentioned
It’s a 13.56 chip, but it runs on a different ISO standard

Think operating language sort of,

Some locks of devices… I think hornady gun safes for example only sees ISO 15693 stuff

That’s a bit more uncommon, the most common is going to be iso14443a which is the NExT and xNT

The Next works with a lot of things, but it’s all going to depend on specific devices… nothing works with everything… sorry if that’s not helpful

[pomtom44]

Ahh, i think I get it now
so while the technology is the same between them, and the frequencies, the communication is different
So if im understanding you, its like pen and paper are the “NFC” aspect, where as english vs japanese are the ISO
so I could use the pen and paper to write a message to someone, And they could “read” the message, but would only understand it if they spoke the same language

So based on that, and some more reading, the NExT is the best bet for a “good all rounder” as it does common NFC (14443) and LF RFID

Although next question which im a bit lost on (and iv written this question like 3 times now as im even getting lost just trying to understand what im asking)

My understanding is theres 3 “standards”
RFID LF and HF
and NFC
(Ignoring the NFC ISO’s)

the NExT is a NFC and LF RFID
so on the chart I can see it under Low Frequency, and High Frequency Non Changeable
What does the Non-Change part mean?

The Low Frequency I understand you just change the ID of the card, and the controller (device) takes that ID and uses that as verification (which is how you can easily clone swipe cards)

The NFC part you use a NFC writer to write data to the chip (such as URL, contact info, etc) and then the device scans that info out (EG a phone reading a NFC business card)

the xM1 is a RFID HF chip? Which is different to NFC? Even though its on the same frequency?

on the chart, i can see some devices work with both LF, M1 and NFC (I assume its the scanner accepting all 3)
Where as some only work with a few HF chips, (which I assume is RFID HF and not NFC)?

Am I right in my understandings so far?

[pomtom44]

I think to shorten my question down

If I wanted to be able to clone both types of RFID cards, and have a NFC “card”
Id need 3 chips

The NExT does NFC (so business card for example) and LF RFID (Cloning my work swipe card)
If I wanted the trifecta, and wanted HF RFID (EG my printer card as work I think is HF rather than LF) Id need a HF chip, which is what the M1 is (even though its out of stock currently)

[Eriequiet]

@pomtom44

My understanding is theres 3 “standards”
RFID LF and HF
and NFC
(Ignoring the NFC ISO’s)

Idk if I’d call nfc a standard, it’s more of a subset

NFC is a specific protocol it just happens to use 13.56mhz and I think it normally falls under 14443a usually but it might not be limited

It’s like Bluetooth, it’s a fairly universal standard that it either works with it or it doesn’t…

But a lot of manufacturers blur the lines and marketing

Short and sweet, nfc is typically PHONE interaction

If you want your phone to read something it needs to be nfc, specifically NDEF which I believe is NFC Data Exchange Format?

It’s limited to certain things like phone numbers or address or url links

[pomtom44]

I did just find this post

Copying access cards / fobs / badges to a chip implant

This post will cover the steps to hopefully copy a card, fob, or badge you currently possess (source chip) into a chip implant that supports cloning (target chip). I say “hopefully” because you need a couple things to be right to make this happen. Requirements There are two things that are necessary for your source chip to be cloneable to a target chip. Your source chip needs to be a simple device with weak breakable security, or no security features at all. Don’t worry, most access control…

Which I think answers the question I had stuck in my head

If im correct
HF RFID is the same as NFC, just without the “data” aspect
EG it uses the ID of the chip, same as the LF RFID

NFC uses more of the chip to store the data you want to transfer, and doesnt care about the chip ID as such

So two parts of the same chip?

[Eriequiet]

@pomtom44

NFC uses more of the chip to store the data you want to transfer, and doesnt care about the chip ID as such

So two parts of the same chip?

More or less

It’s all Rfid,
125khz is LF and kinda old school “plain” rfid
13.56 is referred to a HF and splinters into a few different iso standards, and there is a subset with nfc

[pomtom44]

right, which is why the xM1 is different to the other NFC tags, as it allows you to change its ID to clone a HF RFID badge

And the other NFC chips dont let you change the chip ID but let you write to the data section, which is used for as you say, phone data transfers

I think I have it straight in my head now

[Eriequiet]

Short version…

The xm1 is useful for very specific situations

1. It needs to be a mifare… which as Amal explains it… is still 13.56 but kinda went rouge/proprietary on how it works so it’s not always compatible with stuff and vice versa

2. The system can use mifare or not, but is UID based, and you cannot get your implant enrolled

Such as hotel rooms

I have one and it’s my most unused chip, but everyone’s use case is different

Also… you can do more than 1 per hand… so don’t think you are limited to 2 total, I’ve got 6 in my left hand because of various reasons… but you also don’t have to do that either

[pomtom44]

Time to do some more digging and reading into Mifare then I think, and the HF cards in general

I think for most of what id use it for, the NExT would be fine, so ill probs just start with the 1 and see how it goes

and yeah i know you can get more, its more wife approval factor which is the limiting part at the moment
Was hard enough getting 1 approved, and kinda got a second (cos two hands, one in each in the command place, just above the thumb)

I think id look at others if I found a need but at this point its a want to have rather then a need to have

[Eriequiet]

Your doing a great job at digging and learning… took me months to understand what you are already grasping lol

What are the things you want to do? That might help a lot

Be warned payment is a tricky thing, and won’t work with anything but a purpose specific implant

[pomtom44]

What you havn’t seen is the past year of coming and going and reading up haha,
only came to the forums as I finally got the go ahead to get one, so wanted to clean up a few holes in my knowledge

I think the main two uses cases would be NFC for a party trick
“Hey, scan my hand with your phone, haha you just got rickrolled”

and door locks as I said originally
Home, and / or office (if I get my bosses approval)

Home lock isnt going to be for a while, and id find the lock to match the chip when the time did come

I guess the other use would be just “general interest”
As you said, cloning a hotel key card, just cos I can, or messing around with other readers and projects during my down time

i know payment is a bitch to work with cos of the card vendors
That would be a nice to have if / when something gets there, but not on my current list cos of the issues

[Zwack]

Let me see if I can add to the confusion some…

There are two main frequencies we are looking at 125KHz (and 134KHz but those are mostly animal chips) and 13.56MHz.

125KHz chips include a lot of older access control systems but there is also a handy T5577 chip that can be programmed to emulate a lot of other Low frequency chips.

13.56MHz chips include MiFare chips which use their own standard but pretend to be mostly ISO 14443a compliant. The NFC/HF chips usually don’t have UIDs that you can change (look for “magic” chips for ones you can) and can include extra functionality (cryptography, I2C interfaces, javacards,…)

[mekhos]

Welcome @pomtom44 I don’t have too much to add (@Zwack post above covered everything I thought was missing as I read through the thread) but I wanted reiterate that you are grasping this all well and fast, and that yes it’s pretty complicated to delve into.

I’ll just throw one more thing into the mix and mention a product that is in the works that will boast more capabilities than most of the current options, called the Vivokey Apex. You can sign up for the DT club to get info and offers that are not yet public.