Yeah I get it… but a 9v battery will last about, oh, 3 days. The reality is, the hurdle isn’t the stringing of wires… any car stereo installation place can do that in 20 minutes for a tiny fee. The hurdle is hacking the key to work with the reader. It will require either 1) the customer sends their key to us and we hack it and send it back, or 2) the customer figures out a way to do it themselves.
I don’t really envision Dangerous Things becoming a car key workshop… so we’re already at a kind of high bar for customer technical capability.
The other aspect to address here is that the solution I’m proposing (using the xEM Access Controller) is a “find parts that work and make something” type solution… to make a “real” deliberately designed solution will take months of electronics design and manufacturing contracts to create a new product that is purpose-built for this specific application. At that point we could then easily design something that ran off batteries and could affix to the car window in a single simple little box… but then the question becomes: how large could the market actually be if the customer is required to 1) get an implant, 2) buy or have a car that has the “keyless” function, 3) spend the insane amount of money dealers charge to get a spare key, 4) not mind dealing with swapping batteries every 6 months?
So I agree there could be something here, but the market segment is extremely small with all those requirements. I don’t have the cash to gamble on even starting design work on it… and for even having a decent chance at launching a kickstarter you need to have a working model that looks really slick.
Amal, again thanks for your patience - much appreciated. Some thoughts:
Is the preferred deadbolt compatible with your devices the Samsung SHS-3321 Digital Deadbolt (w/o Mechanical Override Key)? If so, I’m getting one!
Note: This particular deadbolt uses 4 AA batteries, estimated to last up to 10 months. Would four AA’s be enough to power your keyless entry/start devices? If so, then (at least in my case) the thin, plastic emergency key provided by Honda could serve as the backup. The dimensions of the required battery case = 2.7 X 2.7 X.7 … making it easy to Velcro under the dash, to the door, or simply place in the door’s storage compartment.
Regarding your statement: ‘It will require 1) the customer sends us their key; we hack/send back, etc.’
a) There are other options, such as referring folks to their local area hacker groups interested in promoting their cause. This would involve building/managing a national data base (cf. 8d(A)), which would be of inestimable value to you. In my experience, the most efficient way of doing this is to ‘appoint’ one or more volunteer state/regional representatives, tasking each with the priority of collecting and growing an area data base.
b) Before retirement, the nonprofit I created utilized such a volunteer base, which I name GATE – for Global Advocacy Team (feel free to use). Given the allure of the mission, I was able to attract hundreds of folks: celebrities, members of congress, business executives, educators, etc. all of whom received an extra line on their resume in return plus the knowledge they were participating in something extraordinary.
c) If interested, I’m willing to serve as DT’s rep in this area until a more qualified individual can be identified. Everyone, however, including me needs to be thoroughly vetted first.
Regarding your statement: ‘to make a “real” deliberately designed solution will take months of electronics design…’ Are you familiar with The Rule of Months? It states the more distant the month, the slower it appears to move. Yet, due to the direct relationship between the distance to the observer and its rate of acceleration, it arrives at a rate of C, the speed of light … and then vanishes.
The truth is, the same number months are going to arrive and then pass … regardless of what you do, which begs the question: “In the best of all worlds, where do you want to be 6 months from now?”
Regarding your question: ‘How large could the market actually be if the customer must 1) get an implant, 2) possess a car with a “keyless” function, 3) spend money (ca $150) to get a spare key, 4) live with swapping batteries every 6 mos?’
a) Implant – Every person I’ve spoken with about this is intrigued, including the folks at Honda. Even so, by nature most folks wait until a hole is actually created before jumping in, throwing a bit of dirt, and then taking credit for the idea. Thus the need for groundbreakers: If a concept smacks of ‘truth,’ its value WILL be imagined and then wholeheartedly embraced by the ground-breaker. For such, truth is not merely a collateral benefit, but a raison d’etre (eg, Tesla, Newton, Hawking, Schrodinger, et al.), which begs the question: “How much do you believe what you’re doing is of true, universal value?”
b) Cars with a “keyless” function – You’re probably not old enough to remember when every car on earth had crank windows. And today? As you know, the rate of technology adoption continues to increase exponentially. It took 64 years for the telephone to gain 40% penetration, but only 10 years for smartphones. Today, “keyless” is even available in the Nissan Versa. The trend is clear.
c) Cost of Smart Key – Hmmm, glass half full? Does this spell opportunity, or what?
d) Swapping Batteries @ 6 mos – Need some cheese with that whine? One neighbor (also old) recently installed a self-cleaning toilet. It takes 4 AA’s. From hearing aids to Bluetooth – that’s life.
Regarding your statement: ‘the market segment is extremely small with all those requirements.’
Agreed … given the truth of those assumptions. In any event the future is on its way here, and my biggest concern is that when it finally arrives it may be carrying the Samsung, Honda or Hisense logo, rather than the name of its originator. How unfair.
I imagine all of this must sound blatantly obtrusive. Please know I have nothing to gain or lose by this; I only wish is to be constructive/progressive.
Not yet… just sold the house and the lab/office/garage was attached to that house… so DT is officially homeless at the moment The key is safe though and the project continues as soon as I have a bench to work on. Sorry for the delay… bad timing.
Congrats on selling your house/lab; the hassle can be mind-numbing.
Wish I could help in some way.
I continue to spread your name/brand, etc.; Lots of interest from the Wrinkle Ranch.
I’ve encountered no obstacles to acceptance, save one: “BUT, what happens when you trade in your existing car for a new one?” Correct answer: “Simple! Cut off the tagged hand, and implant a fresh tag in the stub.”
Can’t wait to get mine; folks will be watching closely, so it’s important to get it right.
Pleased to be part of the Amal-gam.
For what it’s worth I am working on a similar project. My wife has a 2016 Chevrolet Camaro and in the event the proximity key’s battery has failed there is a rfid reader in the front cup holder. Simply drop the key fob into the holder and you can start the car.
This would not help enter the vehicle but I could, in theory, start the car without the fob.
Attached is an image of the $5 chip embedded in the proximity key. I have one in my possession and will be programming the security system to accept it in the following days. The final step is coating and implanting, though it is a bit bulky.
I will attempt to program this week and will report back. I have a good working knowledge of GM security protocols as I work in automotive service, and in my professional opinion the car should remain running with the chip no longer in the holder.
Hey Amal,
It’s Jon Sherry again about the 2017 Accord Hybrid proximity key. I sent you the prox key on March 20, nearly 3 mos ago. By now you probably know if an implantable chip can be synced with the Honda key…yes? But I’m wondering: when you send me the implant and return the key, will that key still operate if needed in an emergency? Or will the pairing process render the key useless? (in which case I’d have to buy a replacement key ($800!) at the end of the lease before returning the car).
I still have your key I will not be making an implant that can be synced with the car from it, but I will be exploring the possibility of creating a reader that can read one of our other implants… an xNT or xEM possibly. Then, I will disassemble your key, and connect it’s internal circuitry to that reader… kind of like how the Borg assimilate things into their collective
This process will basically convert the key into a pile of parts which will not be able to be reassembled into a normal key again. Since that would cost you a criminal amount of money, if you would like me to simply return the key and we’ll call the whole thing off, just let me know.
Amal, I’m heartsick. I’ve told everyone about your project and have worked hard to lay the groundwork for future sales based on my experience. Even the video guy is eager to get started.
There must be other options, eg,
Replicating the key components of the proximity key needed to build the required reader?
Creating or finding an inexpensive, generic circuitry piece to mimic prox keys?
In lieu of #2, sourcing a generic, ‘brand specific’ circuitry component for Hondas and/or Toyotas at first, and then expanding per market demand.
If it would help you to keep my key a little longer as you consider options, let’s set a return date of 30 days, ie, July 18, OK? Otherwise, the cost of conversion far exceeds the practical benefits of the implant (at least in my case).
Amal, this is not just about me. The true value of your concept is not as just as another boutique toy or shooting star, but as a paradigm-crushing movement.
If a third party option for the car’s keyfob can be found, it might be worth looking into. In the past I set a hard line on doing any engineering work in the automotive field. It is far too messy and waaay outside my scope to bother with, so I cannot engage in engineering a car key fob for various makes and models. However, there must be someone doing it. Keyless2go is a brand that makes remote fobs… but they appear to be the typical pushbutton remotes for controlling door locks. I don’t see any fobs for remote-start or “keyless start” cars… but I think that might be the way to go at this point.
Dealer pricing on these keyfobs is criminal, so there has to be someone going after this market. If you can find an affordable alternative to your keyfob, I can send this one back and accept the other in it’s place.
There is a possibility that I could somehow open the keyfob you sent me and alter it in such a way that it would be possible to reverse the process and put the fob back together again, but sometimes these things are like humpty dumpty… you break them open and they just aren’t going back together again.
Amal, when that day arrives … the day one can send their proximity key to DT and, in return, receive the same key along with an implantable chip holding the capacity to perform the same functions, I will be at the head of what I anticipate will be a very, very long check out line.
I hope that day is near, but until then please return my key - which actually does not belong to me, but to those from whom I lease, ie, Honda.
Thank you Amal. I still want to.be involved in helping to market your concepts … so please feel free to lean on me.
Also … are you aware of the ‘ring device,’ which seems to be able to perform the functions of an implant? If not, go to tokenize.com.
Ever thought of joining that wave as a competitor?
A battery shouldn’t be necessary…on push to start vehicles, the manual says that if the battery dies on the fob, effectively rendering it passive, to hold the fob directly against (over/next to?) the start button when pushing it so that it can read the fob without transponder being powered.
If the fob could be cloned to a passive implant positioned somewhere easy to present to the start button…
I leave my car running when I drop off deliveries and walk away with the keys in my pocket, when I return it’s still running. Only thing I’m not sure of is if gear selector would let you shift out of park without an active read on the fob.
Most fobs do have a passive backup but my bet is they use the somewhat standard crappy 40 bit challenge / response Texas Instruments vehicle transponder chip. While the encryption is crap and easily broken, unfortunately there’s no target chip to clone it to that is implantable… at least not that we make anyway.
It might be possible to make a TI implant chip that you could, with some help probably from the dealer, get enrolled with your car as a valid fob… but I doubt it’s a large enough demand to buy the chips necessary and set up a production run.
And you’d still need to use the backup key that’s housed in the remote to open the door.
IMHO, the best option would be to get an additional fob and add some electronics to power it when you want to start the engine. And maybe to lock the car as well?
You get a notification on the dash telling you that the key has left the vehicle. But the engine will keep running until you stop it with the start/stop button. At least this is how it works on the rentals I’ve tried…
The key is safe though and the project continues as soon as I have a bench to work on. Sorry for the delay… bad timing.