Change vivokey user

Can a vivokey device be removed from one user profile and then added to someone else’s? At the moment it wouldn’t be a very useful idea but I’m thinking of the possibility for the Apex ring potentially being passed onto a family member that I haven’t convinced on implants yet after I’ve maybe had one for awhile and decide to get the implant version of the Apex.

Not really no… not at this time. Perhaps that can be something added in the future, but the idea of passing down an implantable device to another person is just not what we envisioned happening with the implants themselves.

If the RFID device is supposed to be part of your identity it doesn’t make sense to be able to transfer that to someone else.

That’s about what I was expecting, just something I was thinking about for when the product line expands to include non-implantable items however limited they may be.

This has to be considered, I feel an implantable device should not act or have the same level of authentication as a physical easily transferable authentication token like a key, fob, ring, bracelet, necklace, card, etc. Is going backwards into the credit card or ID card systems. Simple as, can you detach your credit card from your bank account and give it to someone else so it works on their bank account?

The ecosystem does not distinguish between a device that has been implanted and one that hasn’t been, nor can it. This is how the conversion service can work. A valid token is a valid token, even if it has been removed from a card, modified and implanted. Given that there is no intrinsic difference between the tokens how would you distinguish them?

If you make them different then that just encourages a reverse conversion service where the implant is taken, and modified into a non implantable token.

You can’t do this as far as I know. You can get a second card on the same account but you can’t take the number off your card and assign it to someone else’s account.

You are right, implanted or not, the system won’t make any difference.
Therefore it was designed as an irreversible link to an account.
As part of a database is not completely impossible.

However, I would guess it depends on how much actual necessity there is for this system modification.
Just as not being able to reset a PIN from an account, it could have security risks to allow people to drop chips from accounts and allow them to create new identities with the same chips.

Does not make sense to me, same as credit cards, one device should belong to one account and not re-used to generate a new accounts or be linked to other accounts.

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If you build it people will use it.

But I think we are in agreement. If this is an identity document it should not be transferrable.
You can’t give your passport to someone else to use.

Credit cards are free though, and apex chip cost $XXX.
I think VivoKey should not use banks standards.

I can think about some edge cases, but it’s not really an argument IMO?

The chip isn’t the document though. An easily regeneratable private key inside the chip is the part that holds the identity.

Yes, I’m sure there are quite a few Sparks not implanted, same will be the case for Apex, especially with rings lol.

I feel like the only good reason not to be able to switch accounts is that VK could sell more devices.

And you have a problem with that? :laughing:

If that is the case then there is no need to transfer the chip, instead you just regenerate the private key for the new person. If you can’t regenerate the key, or there is something specific in the chip itself then your argument fails.

I don’t know the specifics but if the private key is stored in some form of write once memory then you can’t just replace the key.

WIth regenerate I mean create a new one, like generate a new one, not transfer it.

No it doesn’t, I just explained it wrong. I want to be able to make a new account. I want to take my chip, delete my private key and give it to a friend. That friends generates a new key => new identity.

If you cannot replace the key because it is stored in an immutable fashion then you can’t do this.

If there is something specific to the chip that is used in some manner to identify the specific chip then you can’t do this.

That was what I was saying.

I understood what you meant by “regenerate”, and depending on how the chips are set up then it may (or may not) be possible.

If you are relying on someone else to generate keys (because some private key is embedded into the card itself for example) then they deserve to be compensated in some way.

The only thing specific to the chip identifying me should be the private key.
If they use some static chip ID, then why use a smart card?

What? No, I pay for the hardware, I own it, it can generate keys, it’s mine.

It is possible though, we know that for sure (like the PGP applet).

I am assuming that the PGP applet conforms to the OpenPGP standard for smart cards. In which case it is possible to generate and use private keys, but that isn’t the totality of the Vivokey ecosystem. Just because one applet can use it’s own key doesn’t mean that there isn’t a chip specific private key anywhere in use. In fact I would be surprised if there isn’t one that is used to tie that chip to a specific Vivokey account.

That doesn’t stop you from using the chip but you won’t be able to transfer it to another party.

You can buy cheque books for your bank account. They are perfectly legal for you to buy and use but you can’t just hand them over to someone else and have them use them with their own account (I’m not talking about totally blank ones but ones prefilled with some account details)

Yeah ok IF there is a non changable key, and IF VivoKey uses THAT for authentication, yeah then I agree.
But that would be shitty design from VK’s part… then I’d be sure they only do that to sell more devices.

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It might be a requirement for something else rather than a design choice made by Vivokey.

If there is an immutable private key on each chip then Vivokey would have to allow the transfer of the chip (whether implanted or not) to a different account.

So it is not impossible, but it will almost certainly depend on non-technical stuff like legal agreements.

I have a feeling that that is the case… AFAIK there will be a vivokey applet preloaded onto the apex for the vivokey identity platform. I’m not quite sure, but I think that part of the setup process would be linking that with a vivokey identity.

Oh, and @Zwack @yeka that same applet literally powers / is the basis of the vivokey identity system, as it’s how the chipscan library works, along with existing OAuth / wordpress logins + whatever else vivokey comes out with in the future :eyes:

Without it, it’s not really a vivokey identity product, instead its ‘just’ an implantable javacard

Saying that, I hope that if there any any non-implantable products containing the apex’s chip, that there is a way to transfer them or that they are low enough cost that people are ok with basically throwing it away / only keeping it as a backup device should they choose to get an implant.

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Yes this is the case… Apex chips will have a VivoKey Identity applet preloaded that is used for to link to the VivoKey platform. The linking to the platform is actually already done during manufacture, but the pub key within the applet is not linked to any profile… just like the AES keys in Sparks are.

A little breakdown as to why VivoKey isn’t designed for implants to “change hands” (pun!)


So after watching @amal’s video I kind of think the idea of wearables doesn’t belong in vivokey at all.

I get that not everyone is down for implants but the big deal with the apex (in my mind at least) is the multi use Java card aspect of it. Just an idea here but I’d say split off the wearables into their own thing and enable as much functionality as you can for the Java card without adding the vivokey app to it. The. If someone gets a ring enjoys the other features and goes you know it’d be nice to sign into my accounts with it then you push them towards the implant.