Door security (Desfire?)

Most burglaries are done either due to homeowner negligence (unlocked or open doors or windows) or by physically damaging the building to gain entrance.

I am not excusing the locking mechanisms used here, but trying to point out that you can spend a lot of money devising the most secure door and someone will break your window. Most NFC enabled locks could be more secure by removing the backup cylinder that they contain. But people want that mechanical backup reassurance.

I don’t even think that most commercial access control systems do more than check some sort of some ID.

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Yeah, you are right. I just don’t feel that this is enough for me (I’m simply afraid of a smarter burglar who will find out that I’m not exactly poor and that he can open my door any time he wants just by standing near me in the elevator some day in the past). Maybe it’s my “unique” situation that I’m trying to secure a flat and the only entrance is the door or a wall (last floor of 10 floor building, the only other neighbor on the floor is my close friend).

Most NFC enabled locks could be more secure by removing the backup cylinder that they contain.

Yes, this bugs me as well :smiley: I think I’ll go with “having the most secure cylinder money can buy” and “never ever having the physical key with me, and only storing it somewhere safe”. I’d love to not have that weak link there, but I can’t think of any other backup that would work. I mean I can provide battery pack for the lock/reader/server, but still if the motor gets stuck, I’m done. That’s the only reason why I want the backup :confused:

Have you seen Unifi access? That supports desfire :slightly_smiling_face: just requires a bit of installation but it’s not difficult by any means

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No, I did not :slight_smile: Thanks! It looks great (like all Ubiquity products I would say) but it has a few drawbacks for me, particularly that it controls the lock directly (via relay or whatnot). That would mean that I would have to buy a new door that has an electric lock. I had that calculated and it would be something like 6,400 USD (great prices here in Czechia, lol), so I decided I’ll have to make it work with “August/Nuki”-like lock. And then … after a quick search … I don’t think that Unifi could be integrated into the rest of the smart home system (Home Assistant, openHAB).

What about a 2FA
One HF lock and one LF lock

Not impossible for somebody with a “grabber” to get, but less likely they would get both, as they would need to know to “look” for both, and have a grabber for both.

You could require to scan the LF reader first, which powers the HF…

You could hide the location of the LF reader, so only you know…

Just some quick thoights

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2FA is certainly an option. There are products on aliexpress which are readers built into keypads. They can be stand alone or function as a reader to a controller. Having to enter a PIN as well as present a card or implant might be more effective. Just be careful that you don’t get something which can be factory reset by unscrewing and shorting the external reader/keypad.

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I don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade about ubiquiti/unifi but you might want to read this Twitter thread …

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lol I love how simple this idea is and how elegant the solution could be with with NeXT implant :smiley: It’s almost like “security” of the first Mifare cards - “let’s hope no one figures that out”, but way more elegant and creative :smiley:

Yeah, that would be Good Enough™ for most people…I don’t want to waste time. From a security point of view, I think it would be adequate…it just fails the convenience bar for me.

Oh man, I was quite sure that Ubiquity will be my future WiFi solution and all, but now I’m a bit skeptical. Thanks for the link, it definitely is something to look out for.

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any update?

maybe with the soon available Apex?

I currently use UniFi Access with my Flex DESFire arm implant. I use the magic ring as well.

UniFi cards have two antennas and chips inside. I haven’t checked if both get used, if one is LF etc.

I swapped my exterior doors with commercial storeroom locksets and installed AdamsRite fail-secure electric strikes. Worth it, but it was a lot of work.

You can always use a drop of super glue if you want to permanently disable the mechanical cylinder. Or maybe take the whole thing apart to see if there’s a less permanent solution for a particular lock?

Can you use any Desfire or do still have to buy their cards if you want the additional security?

Also, don’t forget that some all-in-one keypads place the relay outside and are terribly insecure.

You can use any desfire you want, but it will use UID only, unless you use one of their unifi access cards (or a flexUnifi conversion :wink:)

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Looks like that silly Tomogotchi dolphin will be able to hack my door. Well shucks.

Edit: I could be wrong but it seems after erasing my implant, and having a successful door unlock, I can determine an encrypted key isn’t actually being saved to the implant. The manufacturer of my access reader, could be gently pushed at supporting the latest NFC security standards including AES-128 encrypted MIFARE DESFire (not only on their own cards, but also on third party access cards and implants).


Well, it had been requested a while back to collaborate with them in making a javacard applet for the apex, but unfortunately it seems they only want people to use their cards if you want to use more than UID only in securing your lock.

Well put. Maybe this type of security shouldn’t be left to obscurity. Perhaps we (mouse in my pocket) make a daughter board that talks IDs to the access device and talks fully open source implementations of secure protocols to the outside.

Im sure it’s possible, just seems like a lot of work when we already have implantable unifi cards :stuck_out_tongue:

Also, with the pro reader you can enable both card + a pin# for extra security if you wanted a sort of 2FA to unlock your doors, so even if someone cloned your UID they would also need to know your pin.

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any update?

I’m working on custom hardware and software which will support Desfire (and I’ll include VivoKey/Apex if it will be possible [should be]), but I can’t really promise any date or anything, because lack of time lately. When I have something usable I’ll definitely post it here. My goal is to make everything open-source and provide all the schematics and whatnot for the hardware itself (which I’ll be hopefully able to sell so that ordinary people can get it easily by throwing some money at me).

At the moment I’m focusing only on the Desfire communication itself because I think the rest will be trivial. I’ve already implemented some basic functionality (like non-encrypted communication, device settings, reading UID,…) and I’m now right in the middle (hopefully :smiley:) of the encryption part (handshake; reading encrypted random, XOR, sending another encrypted random,…) and this is the part that sucks the most, because the almighty NXP decided not to provide datasheets (unless you sign NDA, which I won’t because I plan to open-source everything), so I have to reverse-engineer everything (there are a few sources which help quite a lot, but it’s incomplete/hard to test :frowning:).

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Good to know :slightly_smiling_face: what hardware are you using for reading? The pn532?

Fellow hacker I see :smiley: Yep, pn532, controlled by Espressif hardware (random dev board at the moment, but I plan to use the newest ESP32-S series if it ever becomes a real product) so that if the user doesn’t like my software, they can flash it with their own. I’m optimizing everything from the start to use the lowest power possible because I would like it to be battery-powered (just put it on the wall and pair it with your phone over Bluetooth to your smart home server, which will later use your home WiFi).