Giggity
Prepare to be very disappointed in this point
Yep, quite a bit - usually leads to interesting conversations 
That’s what I meant - for us, the world as we perceive it is real, the “right” world. For an animal with very different senses (seeing light in a different spectrum, perceiving ultrasonic sound, feeling the earth’s magnetic field etc.), the world looks totally different, and it’s still the same. I think I am totally unable to say how the world “really” looks, smells or whatever… I’m a bit saddened by that, sometimes, and it’s one of the reasons for implanting a sensing magnet… coming a tiny step closer to “recognizing the world”
Totally agree on that. But the tragedy with mentally ill people is, that they sometimes don’t experience this “breakdown of logic” you write about…
Some derail-y story of my own dad… few days before he died, he called me to tell me that there were people crawling around on my car (we lived in the same house, my car parked before his window). I looked, and there was nothing. He was sitting there, literally holding binoculars to his eyes, and told me exactly what the people he saw were doing. I went out with him, walked around the car, flailing my arms all around it to show him nobody was there - he didn’t believe me. Common sense, like asking why the hell several people should be crawling around on my car, didn’t work as well. I was quite fucked up afterwards… it was all real for him.
2 Likes
I wanted a hug one, but thats the best I could find.
2 Likes
Appreciate it, thanks 
2 Likes
Don’t think you are getting away without one…
Come here big guy
3 Likes
That’s why we have science. Science lets us peer into reality a bit deeper than an unaided human can. That’s also why religion is such a sad answer to those questions, because it shuts the door to the questions when science opens new doors.
They should if they had a “culture of rationality” before falling into mental illness. Someone who suddenly hears voices can - perhaps with the help of others - realize that their brain creating auditory illusions is a simpler explanation than some nefarious organization hell-bent on torturing them somehow implanting a transmitter in their head without them realizing it.
It’s plain logic. But one has to have that “culture of rationality”. It doesn’t come naturally. What comes naturally to humans is magical thinking and religion. Rational thinking is taught in (good) schools and requires constant nurturing throughout one’s life. It also requires the humility to admit one is wrong, and the willingness to abandon one’s cherished beliefs to reevaluate one’s perception of things in the light of a better explanation.
I surmise that most of the touble convincing someone with mental illness that what they believe is illogical comes from the fact that many of them have had some form of that mental illness for a very long time, often since childhood. Those people often haven’t had time to develop the proper rational thinking that would allow them to realize by themselves that something is amiss inside their brain.
And of course, there’s the judge-and-jury problem: a dysfunctioning brain can’t really be relied upon to diagnose itself. Case in point: my dad. He was rational all his life but he ended up in a padded cell, screaming at us for ruining his world. Or yours too, apparently.
I watched it happen with my mother-in-law before she passed as well. Hers went on for years and it was somewhat terrifying to me to think of living that way. For her, it was the mistress of her estranged 90-year-old husband out to spite her. The Lady would sneak into her apartment and steal her scissors, then sneak back in and return them two weeks later, dulled. Or The Lady would move things around on her while she wasn’t home. So we mover her into a new place on the 9th floor, but The Lady cold scale buildings and come in through her balcony. So we moved her into a place with a 24/7 doorman. So naturally The Lady, the mistress of her 90+ y/o husband, seduced the doorman to get past him. She was Buddhist so we had a great idea, talked to the local monastery and they met with
her and she actually moved into the monastery, surely that would fix it. The Lady didn’t touch her while she was there, but now the head monk was stealing her underwear. We invested in security systems to make her feel safer, but The Lady knew how to disable or circumvent every one of the. At one point she got so upset that we didn’t believe her that she would leave a cassette player recording any time she left home, then when she got home she would play back the tape and listen for any noise. As frustrating as it is to be on “this” side of it all, I can not imagine living in that kind of fear and frustration that nobody believes you.
Then there is my friend’s father… who one day didn’t recognize his children and was armed and convinced they were there to rob him. When you have to call the cops on your own father and say he’s locked himself in his house, armed, and delusional… that was a hell of an experience too.
Anyway, I guess I check in here because I’m naieve/optimistic that someone who is here looking for answers might still be someone that can be reached before it gets to the level of those two.
1 Like
Same here - my dad was the most rational guy I ever met, we had tons of great intellectual and philosophical discussions, and he was always the one I went to when I needed some sort of non-emotional help (for emotions wasn’t his thing…). And he was even rational enough to know exactly what the symptoms of alcoholism were. As long as they didn’t appear on himself… we told him frequently that many of the physical and mental symptoms he developed were based on that, but he never saw it. So I think no matter how much of a “clear mind” you had before, once the shit hits the fan, you’re no longer able to realize it…
Yep… especially since there is sometimes this period in time where you are “clear” again, and realize everything, and then you drop down into this shit again. Happened with my grandma, who was in some kind of “asylum” because she refused to eat and was acting strange… she totally recognized me, asked me to “get her out of here”, and when I told her I couldn’t do it, she no longer knew who I was.
Guess we have quite some sad experiences here… and I seriously hope that at least for some people, there is help. And for all who made similar experiences with people near to them, feel hugged…
2 Likes
A bit OT, but I experienced a real full-on dream spillover once. That is, a dream that keeps on going - or rather, remain somehow relevant into wakefulness instead of disappearing.
I fell asleep on a Saturday evening, and dreamt that I had won a car in a lottery or something during the night. I woke up on Sunday morning, bright and early, took a shower, went for my best 3-piece into the dresser and dressed up… to go and collect my car.
And then I stood there on the porch, wondering where it was. And then I started to wonder how and where I had won that car. Etc etc. It took me a good 15 minutes to arrive at the logical conclusion that it had been nothing but a dream.
It was strangely scary!
1 Like
I can’t leave you out in the cold
I know what you want need
2 Likes
And Pilgrims is in hugging mode today
Yet, in real life
100% me
3 Likes
No it’s not! But only if it’s interpreted as a metaphor. Then it:
Yes, you can say that we might as well call that philosophy.
And I’ll frankly agree on it. I guess a religion is (and maybe shouldn’t be anymore but) a philosophy reinforced by rituals.
(Seemingly I’m in a religious mode today. BUT! I’d like my hug the day I get the Titan implanted pls =)
And if someone takes ‘The Books’ by the word they’ll end up like:
Hmmmm… I tend to agree with Rosco here again - most religions I know claim that they have answers, while science rather tries to ask the right questions and is open to the option of not knowing everything. Religion is there to explain (currently) unexplainable things, like how everything came to live, what’s beyond death or before birth; and if people are satisfied by religion’s explanations, they have no intentions to search on… which actually hinders science.
Or religion is used to establish moral standards, which can be dangerous as well, considering how old and therefore usually conservative most religions are - this topic should be left to philosophy / ethics and not religion.
I’m totally okay with rituals, they help to structure every day life, and private faith and such are great for lots of people (everything’s okay as long as everyone involved is happy with it), but religion as an institution tends to do more damage than help, in my opinion.
2 Likes
Most of the time I speak with a priest or a representative of a church I have AWESOME conversations where we agree that it’s a guideline that is spread by the tradition. Once the manuscripts of the library are burnt to ash you will not remember the quadratic formula, but the silly story about the guy who turned wine into pee will be passed on.
BTW we all explain very-very similar things, but have different experiences.
I’d phrase: Religion meant to give you answers to everything.
Also a religion is expected to be able to give guidence in every situation.
Same with politics. So they somewhat similar to law.
I feel this comment belongs to another topic
1 Like