Questions About Devices & Management

[vivivi]

Hey all,

First - thanks for being here! Was excited to see activity in a relatively niche space.

If there is any feedback for the points I have, please add your thoughts, even if it doesn’t address the entirety of my post.

I have a few questions, as seen in the title. Would truly love the support on them. I have read through the forum and see posts which may be up-to-date content wise, but are still some years old

1. This is of the biggest interest - are there any ‘new’ or more updated products on the horizon that should be noted? I see the titan is under redesign, but curious about other flex chips.

Next, I understand that there are a few reasons why someone would want one of these, and understanding that would be the ideal way in helping someone choose.

I don’t want to get into specifics, but my ‘goal’ would require the most amount of writable space possible. I understand we are talking kbs not mbs, so no need to reiterate.

I am looking at two separate devices, which I have direct questions about. If there is a better suggestion, based on the need, please let me know!

The products i’ve been looking at are:
– the vivokey apex fle: 86kb~ of EEPROM, with 1kb - 32kb being writable
– flex UG4: didn’t see any file limitations.

2. My assumption of differences is that the VivoKey Apex Flex is the more ‘commercial’ of the two, with a dedicated app, versus the UG4 being ‘hardmode’ with writing (sector 0 writable, script based, etc). Is this correct and are there any other pieces I should note for this?

3. For the Flex, the NFC share applet mentions data ranges of ‘1kb to 32kb’ - why is this variant?

4. Am I correct in that this link is the same as the deployed app on the Play Store for managing the device? → GitHub - VivoKey/Intra: Intra Android NFC Library

5. With the data range covered for the Apex Flex, what is the range for the UG4?

Thanks - and apologies for the long post!

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@vivivi

my ‘goal’ would require the most amount of writable space possible. I understand we are talking kbs not mbs, so no need to reiterate.

Flex Secure

@vivivi

My assumption of differences is that the VivoKey Apex Flex is the more ‘commercial’ of the two, with a dedicated app

Hmmmm, Not REALLY.

They are 2 very different Chips.

Apex is all about security and identity

UG4 is a Emulation Chip that can be many types of chips (But not the Apex or Flex Secure)

@vivivi

‘1kb to 32kb’ - why is this variant?

Users choice, Amal did test 64kb but the read write speed wasn’t great, so it was a design decision to restrict this as it would reflect poorly on the device and its performace for those that didnt understand the physics.

The FlexSecure however is more open source, and this limitation could likely be bypassed

I JUST PREMATURELY POSTED, Standby for Part II

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@vivivi

I don’t want to get into specifics

Not asking, But Due to this I will continue to push you down the FlexSecure path

@vivivi

Am I correct in that this link is the same as the deployed app on the Play Store for managing the device?

For the Flex Secure, I would direct you here

Apex Authentication Guide

note: Some of the information in this guide in inaccurate or incomplete. Read the comments for details. Overview The Apex line of implants (and their associated P71 chips) are one of the most versatile devices sold by Dangerous Things. They are one of the few chips that allows for installable applets, making them suitable for a variety of uses. Applets enable the P71 chip to fully emulate an NFC Yubikey-style security device for authentication. This guide covers installing, setting up, and usi…

@vivivi

With the data range covered for the Apex Flex, what is the range for the UG4?

Since I wasnt particularly clear above, if Space is what you want, lets ignore the others for now, unless you really want the info…

But to answer read range, those 3 (Apex, Secure, UG4 )
are all similar

What does make a difference is a repeater

Grab one off here that will suit you needs, generally a sticker is a good option.

Midwest Gadgets LLC on Tindie

Heres my review

Resonant Repeater Arsenal

As i said in the other thread, thankyou for dedicating the time to test and be objective on these products. I appreciate the dedication to appropriate testing and the results you share.

Also

FYI my FlexSecure thread

My FlexSecure Journey

100% My Apex will remain my Number 1, but super thankful for the FlexSecure option. If I was reccomending to others, unless they were really well versed in Java, I would suggest to get an Apex first, learn how it works with the ease of install of applets. I set up all my applets with my Apex, now the FlexSecure is a just a simple “transfer” After my first command, this is what it came back with [image]

TL:DR

From the info you gave, and if you trust some random dude on the internet

Get yourself a FlexSecure and a repeater sticker, It is your best option to do what you secretly want to achieve

I hope this helps.

[vivivi]

@Pilgrimsmaster you’re a legend for these posts! Thank you, so much, for the detailed response.

Not sure how I missed the Secure. Appreciate the mention. Was looking through the DT github for an NFC Share applet, and came across this table: flexsecure-applets/docs/7-aid-list.md at master · DangerousThings/flexsecure-applets · GitHub

It mentions NFC Share (current) is being phased out. Last update was ~ 3 years ago and the planned / future one is going to a broken link.

Going by the name of the repo, I assume the correct link is: GitHub - VivoKey/Flex-NDEF: NDEF tag implementation for JavaCard which was updated ~ 5 years ago, but I am curious, are you aware of a more up-to-date release that isn’t published yet? The NFC Share applet would be a great place for me to start.

Thanks again for your help and appreciate the insight

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@vivivi

Last update was ~ 3 years ago

@vivivi

which was updated ~ 5 years ago,

Heres the link

DangerousThings/flexsecure-applets/blob/master/docs/applets/4-ndef.md

Let me drop a
@StarGate01 here.
Who is far more knowledgeable than me

[vivivi]

Again - appreciate the help. The guide points to the first repo I listed, and, if it works, great, but curious on updating.

Also, for the record, what i want to ‘secretly achieve’ - it’s all things that will be open for all once they’re documented

[TSMC55]

@Pilgrimsmaster

and if you trust some random dude on the internet

I can vouch for him, if you trust some other random bloke on the internet.

[StarGate01]

The open-source NDEF applet is GitHub - OpenJavaCard/openjavacard-ndef: NDEF tag implementation for JavaCard , which is detailed in flexsecure-applets/docs/applets/4-ndef.md at master · DangerousThings/flexsecure-applets · GitHub . Despite its age, its a complete implementation and works well. We used it in production for quite some time.

The current production version for Vivokey is https://github.com/VivoKey/apex-ndef , which is proprietary and not released as open-source. It implementes the same featureset as the other applet, and adds support for the Vivokey Authenticity API Authenticity API - VivoKey Technologies § “CMAC Signatures with NFC Sharing for Apex” .

[vivivi]

Amazing and thank you! Assumed the same but wanted to ask.

As one final question, regarding NDEF and usage for Android / iOS, are you familiar with the limitation on mime types / has there been any changes over the last few years with what is allowed?

I read this thread COVID certificate and other large NDEFs

Which talked about a user wanting to have a local HTML instance, rather than link to a website.

I’m not sure if you @StarGate01 (or anyone else for that matter) have experienced any updates to that (as Apple now has NFC on by default, is open to 3rd parties, etc), but I have read a lot of documentation for Android / iOS regarding NDEF and don’t see a list of ‘allowed’ mime / media types… at least something within the last year or so.

Very curious if anyone else has managed to to do this, or has a workaround for it

[StarGazer1258]

@vivivi

This is of the biggest interest - are there any ‘new’ or more updated products on the horizon that should be noted?

If you want to be in the know about things in development and on the horizon, you’ll want to join the DT Club. More often than not, anything that Amal and the team are working on will get posted there first and will sometimes be up for early grabs to members.

[Satur9]

@vivivi

understand we are talking kbs not mbs

I haven’t posted in the thread yet because there haven’t been any substantive updates, but we got a crew together on the discord who I’m pretty confident is capable enough and dedicated to moving the bodybytes forward, so we might be looking at GB soon. It’ll take months though. Luckily I already have done a ton of work with Qi wireless charging, and Amal and Cassox have some new encapsulation tricks that could make it work.

[vivivi]

This is very interesting. I’ve seen people wrapping Pi zeros and powering over Qi, but nothing market-friendly.

Curious to see what comes out of it. If it moves further along and software support is needed, feel free to reach out (python / js / rust / solidity).

[Satur9]

Okay I’ll let you know. We’re targeting a module from Trolink using the MT7628DAN chip, and the current plan is to fork OpenWRT and make a very stripped down version for this embedded “embedded” application

[vivivi]

No way That’s awesome. Love to hear about the projects driving the initiative.

Not as well versed in C, but have been running OpenWRT / Tomato on routers for years. Open has support for rust packages now, so if that fits the project, happy to contribute that way