Two circular implant ideas: could they work?

anon3825968 · June 18, 2020, 10:14am

I’ve been wondering if the following ideas might work. Surely Amal and those versed in body artistry on this here board can answer.

So say we want an implant with the same performances as a full-size credit card (who wouldn’t ) It would have to have coil roughly 3" in diameter. If such an implant was a FlexEM-style disk, that’s a 7 square inch area of skin that’s essentially dissociated from the flesh underneath. Not acceptable - at least I suppose it can’t be terribly healthy.

Now then, suppose the middle of the disk is hollowed out: the implant becomes a circle with a rim a fraction of an inch wide. To implant this, instead of cutting open and lifting a huge flap of skin, the body artist could scalpel-cut a circle, say, 2" in diameter, lift the skin over half an inch around the outside of the cut, insert the implant a bit like one pushes a tube into a bicycle tire, then close up the circular wound.

I imagine the end result could be quite satisfactory. However, what I also see is a 6 1/4"-long circular cut that’ll bleed profusely, require an phenomenal number of stitches or dermaclips, take forever to heal, and that has all the chances of staying visible for a very long time. Or would it?

As for the implant itself, would it be too difficult to make, too fragile outside of the body, possibly too fragile inside the body as well?

So to avoid the butchery, I had another hare-brained idea: an almost circular implant - i.e. it’s not closed. The antenna would essentially be a 9 1/2" curved, thinner version of the FlexDF that forms an open 3" circle.

The implant would be inserted with a large question mark-shaped “needle”, that would puncture the skin at one point, snake around under the skin until it does a full 360. Then the implant would be pushed out of the needle a bit, the body artist would pinch the far end, then retract the question mark needle by rotating it out the way it went in, leaving the implant in place.

For this one, I think the main problem would sourcing the large question mark needle. It would have to be a custom machining job, so not cheap.

As for the implant, I’m under the impression that a proper coil should be complete loops, not almost circular lengths of copper wire zigzagging back and forth along a circular-shaped path - simply because the induction current in the lengths of wire going one way would be cancelled out by the opposite current generated in the lengths going back the other way. Or said another way, there would be almost no area swept by the actual coil, therefore very little induction. So performance-wise, it may very well suck big time for its size. But maybe I’m mistaken and it could work.

What do you think?

yeka · June 18, 2020, 10:41am

(Full circle) I think the healing process would be hard. You’d need to put pressure on the skin for quite some time, else there would be an air/blood filled pocket, which defeats the purpose of the hole.

anon3825968 · June 18, 2020, 10:46am

Well yeah, but that’s no different from surgery. People go under the knife all the time and come out alive and well for the most part.

I did say it was butchery

anon3825968 · June 18, 2020, 10:54am

And here’s a third idea: the implant’s coil is 3" in diameter, but made up of stiff enamel-coated spring steel (piano wire) and contained inside a closed silicone tube, forming a thin torus. The implant is forced into a somewhat rod shape and contained into a very large needle (more like a big tube really). When it’s pushed out of the needle, it starts pushing the fascia layer outwards. Over time, it assumes a circular shape under the skin, and - hopefully - the fascia layer it has displaced reforms / reattaches behind it.

yeka · June 18, 2020, 2:31pm

I don’t get that statement.
Probably because you didn’t get mine?

I mean after closing the wound, the hole in the implant would create the pocket.
A usual surgery closes the wound and all skin toiuches flesh again, which wouldn’t be the case here.

But whatever, I’ve got 0 experience so idk.

Satur9 · June 18, 2020, 2:34pm

I don’t think the modest performance boost you would get from these types of procedures would be worth the risks and costs associated with this type of surgical procedure. When you start getting into silicone coatings and small batch sizes because of the low demand, that’s a little beyond DT’s purview. That sounds a lot more like the kind of experimental one-off implant that Cassox would make. He’s not usually on this forum, but I’m sure he’d be willing to share his thoughts if you posted in the usual spot. There’s probably other voices there with more experience in this topic as well. I don’t know how much you’ll get out of the crew here

anon3825968 · June 18, 2020, 3:16pm

Yes I think there’s a misunderstanding somewhere along the line

Hmm, I still don’t understand…

The purpose of my brainfarts is to minimize the amount of skin that doesn’t connect to the flesh underneath. So the hole in the implant precisely does not create a pocket: the pocket would be ring-shaped, and since the ring is closed - in the case of the closed circle implant idea - you need to slice open the skin all around to implant it.

I’m not sure the performance boost would be that modest. And I don’t know if the risks are all that great. That’s why I’m asking for the opinion of people in the know.

I mean when you look around on the internet for body modifications, you find images of things that are obviously far more radical than what I’m proposing - and those people seemingly are still alive and doing fine. But yeah, clearly it’s not a minor thing, and you’d probably need an experienced body modder to pull it off safely.

To be honest, I was thinking aloud. I’m fairly sure none of this will ever come to fruition. But hey, that’s what forums are for: discussing things

yeka · June 18, 2020, 4:55pm

Oh wow I understand now, I was thinking more of a usual installation. (Create pocket with 1 straight gut, slide in)
I’m a noob, but I’d guess

True.

Why isn’t this the title of this forum?

anon2520759 · June 18, 2020, 5:34pm

I definitely think a smaller incision and creating a pocket, even if it has a hole in the center of disc, would be a much better way to go than cutting around the outside, but - that would depend how flexible the antenna is and if you could fold it enough to slide into the pocket.

Have you looked much into silicon subdermal implants and how they’re implanted? Does silicon impede RF signals pretty badly even if it’s super thin?

Satur9 · June 18, 2020, 5:59pm

Nope, you should be good

amal · June 18, 2020, 6:40pm

I’ve considered making larger diameter implants using inlays with holes cut out of the center. I think this would promote healing and be overall better for the skin located above the hole… fascia would reattach, the skin would be much more stable, and blood vessels would not have to “go the long way around” to supply the tissue so the risk of necrosis would be much lower.

Silicone is an elastomer, but we do not use elastomers. The way we use our biopolymer to encapsulate things makes a very thin coating, but how it crosslinks itself gives good flexibility in the Y axis (the thin cross section), but not the X axis (the thicker x plane)… something like this…

So, folding up or squishing the implant in order to insert it through a smaller hole is not really possible like it is for body mod silicone implants. That said, you could probably achieve success using a smaller incision if you consider the Z axis… once you make your cut and start to separate tissue, you can lift the skin up at the incision point and make a kind of archway through which you could pass a similarly arched implant through. This would not violate the x-axis flexibility issue with our flex implants.

I disagree here. I mean, 3" is quite a large surface area, but if you had a hole in it, healing time for tissue placed back down shouldn’t be all that long or difficult… I mean… @Backpackingvet had a de-gloving accident where the skin was separated from their body, but not torn off… what was the healing like for that? I imagine it was a lot of bruising and such, but nothing outrageous. In any case, as @anon2520759 mentioned, you could look to the bodymod industry… they separate large swaths of tissue all the time… healing isn’t all that complex.

I know what you mean, but basically I think the performance is going to seriously suffer… so much that you might as well go with a straight narrow antenna like the flexDF2 and the like. If someone wanted to play antenna engineer and make some different shapes, we could settle it out, but my hunch is that it wouldn’t be all that different from a straight antenna of the same width.

…puts on thinking cap

I do have some bullseye NTAG216 tags that have a 35mm diameter antenna. This is approximately the same diameter as the entire VivoKey Flex early prototype I hand made 3… maybe 4 years ago now… in my left arm. The tissue above that implant is a little unstable, meaning when kids grab it, it slides around over the implant… kinda easy to pull enough tension on that skin to cause pain at the edge where it’s still attached to my body. Going any larger than this would not be advisable in my opinion… however the idea of putting a hole in the center so the unattached tissue is minimized… I think it might be time to start messing around a bit and see what’s possible.

Anyone interested in seeing bullseye ntag216 implants?

NiamhAstra · June 18, 2020, 6:53pm

I made a comment on the discord last night when talking about larger light up implants. I was basically wondering if you made an incision with a scalpel could you make a pocket on each side. One with a QI antenna, a “long” connecting strip (under the incision) to the other side where you have the, in the chat last night, a little Bluetooth controlled rgb led module. then the charging coil could be attached without blocking the lights.

Kinda like this awesome artwork:

Red = incision, Black = implant

amal · June 18, 2020, 7:17pm

absolutely… this is sometimes done with silicone aesthetic implants. There is an increased risk of cross contamination though because simply handling the implant and getting it to behave while attempting to insert it is a bit more difficult… but a skilled professional should make easy work of it (and not drop it).

Cross contamination is always a risk… the human mind has a hard time with keeping track of everything. I’ve seen doctors and bod mod pros doing suture procedures let the suture itself brush against the table (outside the field), their clothing, their own skin… then they pull it right through your wound… over and over again. The more handling a thing gets, the greater the risk.

NiamhAstra · June 18, 2020, 7:34pm

On that note, if someone wanted to build something implantable would it be possible to get it encapsulated by DT? If so what sort of constraints would there be?

* Googles how to git gud at surface mount soldering *

amal · June 18, 2020, 7:35pm

possibly yes… z-height is a major concern, but i can also apply some filler resins to smooth out the “skyline” of the pcb. try to keep overall thickness to 1.5mm max if possible (flexpcb not fr4)… and we can try it.

Devilclarke · June 18, 2020, 7:39pm

Hmmm, @NiamhAstra let’s talk

Backpackingvet · June 18, 2020, 8:05pm

It is all perspective. Worst thing I have lived through, recovery also.

In my mind, I feel like it was outragous, only because the doctors blew me off and didn’t take me serious.

It all started when I put a mid drive 1000 watt kit on my mountain bike. This one Programmed for Hot Rod use. so it peaks at about 1350 on average. I was doing about 30mph when I slipped on gravel, and slid for several feet after a flip. I think. I can’t honestly tell you what happened as it was over quick, and the pain made me just check myself first. Yes I had a helmet on, and no I did not hit my head.

Pictures will be attached when I edit from my phone, I will try to put them in the right places.

So After that I realized nothing was broke, I applied pressure to the bleeding areas until it stopped. I picked up the parts to my bike, and headed home. I walked about 1.5 miles home, and my wife looked at me and asked why I didn’t call. I took some ibprofin, and smoked the green, and drink the pain away. The next day, I had a huge hematoma on my leg. I also had a puch of fluid forming that happened when I fell. I did not know what it was at the time, so I went to the primary doc that day and they xrayed me. My leg was on fire yall. I have been through some shit, but I woke up crying for days because of my leg. I couldn’t sleep, if I would roll in the night, I would feel my skin tearing apart again. It was tourture like. I lived like that, doped up with hydrocodon, and after a few more days, I went to the ED. I couldn’t take the pain any more and the pouch of fluid was 4 inches wide, and 7 long by this point.

The ED told me to wrap it with pressure, but they wouldn’t drain it. Those fucks didn’t even palpate it. So they wrapped it and it hurt like hell, so once I left, I cut the wrap off, and felt much better. There was no way a wrap would help. I schduled another appointment for the next day, about 1 week after the accident, for my primary.

I walked in there, and said if you don’t drain this, I will. They drained it, and put a wrap around it. It felt so much better. It slowly filled up over another week, and so I drained it, because I ain’t paying for them to do something I can do at home just as sterile as they did in the office. My wife helped me. I drained about 1 and ahalf cups of fluid outta my leg. I wrapped it and it felt better.

3.5 weeks after the wreck, it kept filling up and being painful so I had a consult with Surgical. They took me in, and scanned me. I had Morel-Lavallée lesion: A closed degloving injury that requires real attention and they had me in surgery the next morning as first case.

I had a dudes fist in me, and 23 staples, 3 sutures, and a JP wound thing for 2 months. I could hardly walk, as they wanted me immobile so the skin would quit tearing away from each other. I had to empty the suction thing, and it was just weird. I still have nerve damage from it all, as when they cut down, they nicked some, along with what I had damaged, so I can only feel deep pressure and pain on my thigh now.

I would say it was outrageous, only because I couldn’t sleep for a while after that also. Pictures might be attached in no particular order, if I feel like moving them later I will. I just am not getting back on my computer after this for a bit.

Long story short,

As long as there is nothing to keep them from joining. I had fluid in the way. I think the area in the middle would be a good idea, where as, if say a pegleg is in for 7 years, and it has to be taken out because it broke internally, you would essentially have a morel lavelle leasion I feel. The skin internally would have already been healed aroud it, so would you need surgical intervention?