Use-Case/Project Indexing

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@D34G

I find it as a platform difficult to reliability provide detailed instruction because it is not designed for tutorials

My thoughts

I dont think reliability is the issue, but more the format used to present it.
The forum can be used and I think quite suitably with a couple of considerations.

Indeed Discourse is not the best platform, but I think shifting it external to the Forum would be a little less clean therefore making the forum the better option.

I have had 2 things in mind for quite some time but they are a huge undertaking.
It is a big commitment in both time and effort.

I would want to be 100% certain it would be used before personally committing to it.

I know it can work,
I know it will be better than what we currently have,
What I don’t know is, if it will be worth the effort
Don’t get me wrong, I am happy to freely give up my time to help anybody that asks a question, So I wouldn’t want to do a half arsed approach to an alternative, and the alternative I am thinking about would also be a BIG undertaking and VERY time consuming.

Basic concept:
Get a new category approved and set up by Amal.
Contents page (Intro post) as “described” in my previous post.linking to projects within the thread.
following a set template, Convert / Build some of the previous projects into “Instructables” style format. (Possibly saved as .pdf)
Locked would mean, people would have to submit their content for “approval”.

I wonder if comments and questions would fuck the flow up, which is why I think a locked thread would be better.
Not having it locked, brings in the questions, which in turn takes us roughly back to were we are now. And it is “too difficult” for people to read through and filter out the essential information.

Time to contradic myself here.

@pilgrimsmaster

I think shifting it external to the Forum would be a little less clean therefore making the forum the better option.

Alternatively a
“Dangerous Things Instructables”
built on Wordpress with Optional Vivokey Login would be good.
But not sure If Amal would want to host and/or have the time to build this platform.

Yet another option could be actually using Instructables and just hyperlink to projects from the forum “contents page”

Anyway thats my thoughts out loud,
As you can see i am all over the place on this
because I have been thinking about it for a while now.
I am not sure how others feel about it or yourself @D34G if that falls in line with what you were thinking…

@D34G

Perhaps this is too ambitious

Ambitious YES, but still doable.

@D34G

perhaps there’s an easier way?

I hope so.

I think a database would be the best platform for the lookup at least, but it still needs something to lookup.

A flow diagram or sequential drop down would quickly get you to a result…but again it still needs those results.

All that to say

[D34G]

@Pilgrimsmaster

I wonder if comments and questions would fuck the flow up, which is why I think a locked thread would be better.
Not having it locked, brings in the questions, which in turn takes us roughly back to were we are now. And it is “too difficult” for people to read through and filter out the essential information.

I’ve seen some sites, like nexusmods, do something similar to this. maybe a new category here would work. On XDA forums anyone can create a thread just like here but the difference is the OP can edit the post whenever they want, whether to update the thread or close it or whatever. The users follow up with updates, questions, testing, etc. If Discourse can allow the OP to do that then the tutorial can be put up as the first post. OP can give permission to others to edit the post, and as always mods can lock, unlock as needed. Would this be more your style? I take it you’re the webmaster for this site.

[Eyeux]

@D34G

At first yes appetite would be small, but it will grow I think.

Here you hit right where the nail lies in the coffin of most startups!

Appetites only grow out of their comfort zones if such growth is easier.

@D34G

Perhaps a wiki with basic tutorials would be a good start - similar to how Proxmark does their wiki.

Proxmark is one (and only one) “product” which also depends on people learning how to use them.

DT has a myriad of products which in most cases don’t need even a proxmark level of knowledge, so I can see why it wouldn’t be that worthy for them to put the insane amount of effort needed.

@D34G

many times searching results in finding people who showcase their work but not a step by step on how to get it done.

This is also a good point we need to pay attention.

The way this forum works would get a lot of people showcasing their work, or putting in some effort to help someone’s queries… but most people would not have the time and availability to build a step by step guide.

Take me as an example… I would gladly spend 20 hours a week in this forum dedicated to helping someone out, spread in a bunch of 5 to 20 minute bursts. Because those bursts would be relaxing and provide me with much needed mental rest from working.

I would not so easily spend 10 hours building a step by step guide on that topic.

It’s half the time? yes (hypothetically. It usually takes way more than only 10 hours of work to build a good step by step tutorial).
But even being way less time, it’s still “work” time.
It’s no longer relaxing.

Not to mention that it becomes then an isolated effort.
I sit alone. I write alone. I post alone. Then I massage my ego alone.

While we’re all chipping in into answers to a same thread it all becomes a lot more organic and humane.
It connects people, conversation evolves…
That is what makes the forum so alive!!

And also so up to date!

@D34G

Perhaps sharing libraries for services and APIs may be a little above and beyond

It’s not above and beyond, actually. loads of people do that! but that’s what github is there for.

The way I see it, here is the place where you can ask “where to look”. Then people would point you at the github repos.

Note that I’m not trying to debunk the Idea. I do like your whole concept. But this github is just a good example of looking analytically about how things are right now, so we know how much more effort would it take for people to adapt into using/building new content here…

Because if we make it too much effort, people just won’t, and I can’t blame them.

@Pilgrimsmaster

I dont think reliability is the issue, but more the format used to present it.

Completely agree with you here!

@Pilgrimsmaster

I think shifting it external to the Forum would be a little less clean therefore making the forum the better option.

I also have to agree with you there.
Which doubles up the issue of Discourse not being a good platform for that model.

@Pilgrimsmaster

Don’t get me wrong, I am happy to freely give up my time to help anybody that asks a question, So I wouldn’t want to do a half arsed approach to an alternative

This is a perfect example of the exact point I made above.

@Pilgrimsmaster

Not having it locked, brings in the questions, which in turn takes us roughly back to were we are now.

Agree, once more.

@Pilgrimsmaster

not sure If Amal would want to host and/or have the time to build this platform.

Here it’s more than just time. There would also be an onus to maintenance. Not only the technical side of it…

If it’s something where DT has a name behind it, it’ll also have need of curation to some extent, least it blows back onto DT.

Ultimately, you will also need to keep producing content.
Decline in content production leads to less content consumption, which reduces the drive towards content… and it becomes a downward spiral.

Also, having the threads locked would reduce engagement… (although I don’t see it working if they are not locked. we fucking derail everything here!!)

@D34G

the difference is the OP can edit the post whenever they want

We can do that here as well.
In fact most of the “step by step” threads we have on the forum are done using that approach.

Still goes too much against the engagement style of the forum…
And bears the question:

Who would be donating so much of their time to fill it up?
Of course a few of us would, but not nearly with enough tenacity as needed to gain a new momentum.

Again, not arguing against… just raising up the issues such an enterprise would stumble upon. In hopes we can devise how to keep standing.

[D34G]

You just gave me an idea, I want to put something together to show you what I have in mind as an appropriate example. Until then I’ll table further debate on the matter. Btw, you are right, there is definitely the investment/timing side to consider, it sounds like there is much wisdom in your opinion.

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@Eyeux

eloquent as usual

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@D34G

I take it you’re the webmaster for this site.

Nope, Just another idiot with an arsehole opinion

@D34G

it sounds like there is much wisdom in your opinion.

Indeed, and as is needed for advancement, there are always more questions than answers…

@D34G

Until then I’ll table further debate on the matter.

I know what you mean, but just to be clear, I view a debate as opposing viewpoints, there is no opposition. I / we want this to happen also.
The same reason why early on my joining the forum I put together a bunch of Wikis, to fill the gap where previously there was a void.

@D34G

I want to put something together to show you what I have in mind as an appropriate example

Looking forward to it
If done correctly this could be “slick as fuck”

We already know the answers to:-
What: This
Why: Obvious
Who: The community

My standpoint is more the:-
Where: ?
How: ?
When: This will be dictated by the Where and How

[Devilclarke]

My 2p is that it will add clutter unless you did something like tags but that won’t work for posts / threads already there. Personally the search feature is more than enough for 90% of people litterally use keywords and it works great.

[Eyeux]

@Pilgrimsmaster

eloquent as usual

Was there some sarcasm I sense?
If not, should’ve been!

@Pilgrimsmaster

We already know the answers to:-
What: This
Why: Obvious
Who: The community

Despite me agreeing that “Why” is obvious… it is also a bit tricky.

As in… even if there is an obvious gain from it, I’m not entirely convinced everyone else would be interested in such gain.

There is a big imbalance here:

• The ones with the most interest in a shift to that format are also the ones with the least capacity to contribute to it.
• The ones with the most capacity to contribute to it, have the least interest.

To illustrate, I’ll take @Devilclarke’s point, since it’s spot on:

@Devilclarke

Personally the search feature is more than enough for 90% of people litterally use keywords and it works great.

I completely agree here!
If you know which keywords to use, the search feature is amazing!

Problem arises when someone is completely fresh to all this and don’t know which words to use.

But then… kinda very quickly they learn what to search for… and we have now a third category:

• The ones with only moderate interest into the new format, and still not able to contribute much.

And I think that imbalance must be addressed first.

Another good example I thought of while talking to an apprentice yesterday…
Sometimes it’s not even about “not knowing how to search”…
It’s about not recognising the answers.

I very often see apprentices reaching a very good post on stack overflow with a perfect, easy to follow, step by step answer to their own question.

They look at it and jump to another post, then come to me and ask again, complaining they couldn’t find an answer.

I usually ask them to go back to the very first answer they found, and ask them to read it aloud to me.
That is more often than not enough to make them realise that that post actually did have not only the answer, but also the step by step guide they were looking for.

And this is a skill everyone can develop, but which development is hindered by easy-to-access tutorials, Ironically.

[Devilclarke]

But when I say key words were litterally talking about filtering by project section then typing lock or toolbox or safe or car

It really isn’t learning keywords for this community it what do you want to do.

[Eyeux]

@Devilclarke

But when I say key words were litterally talking about filtering by project section then typing lock or toolbox or safe or car

Yet that takes a ridiculous amount of skill which we seldom appreciate.

For example, look at these 2 searches, here on the forum:

On the left, I used the same terms that @D34G used:

@D34G

For example when I search ‘how to automate door’

On the right, you have how I would search for exactly the same theme.

I guess it’s easy to spot the difference, right? especially when you look into the third result on the right.

By attempting to be more specific, the search on the left ends up “polluting” the search algorithm.

This particular skill even gained a name: “Google Fu”

What bites is that each subject, sometimes each community, will have a set of keywords you must learn how to use.

Going back to our current example… “automate” is a polluting term when you’re searching NFC related stuff, because almost every topic will use that word somehow.

Meanwhile, if you go to a forum about DIY carpentry, then “automate” might be the best keyword to use, because very few projects will have it.

[Satur9]

I don’t see any need to make a “self-serve” project matrix. I feel the search function is more than adequate and you don’t need special keywords for most cases.

If you end up not finding what you’re looking for, feel free to post a question. That’s kinda the whole point of having a community, you help each other. That is one piece of feedback we always get about the DT forums is that everyone is really helpful. Why depersonalize that with a spreadsheet that will inevitably become out of date?

[anon3825968]

Wrong approach.

Normally one wants an implant to do something - “I want to pay for things”, “I want to start my car”, “I want to unlock my front door”, “I want me some cosmetic shiny under my skin”… then researches if it’s doable, then researches how.

A list of use cases means you know you want an implant but you don’t know what for

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@Pilgrimsmaster

eloquent as usual

@Eyeux

Was there some sarcasm I sense?
If not, should’ve been!

Absolutely not, Your posts are always very well written, clear, concise, articulate.

No sarcasm, genuine comment

[Eyeux]

@Satur9

I don’t see any need to make a “self-serve” project matrix. I feel the search function is more than adequate and you don’t need special keywords for most cases.

This goes to put more weight behind my original point:

The current users won’t see much gain from such an endeavour because once you know how to search for stuff here, the search function is amazing.

And even new joiners get used to it fairly quickly.

So the only ones to benefit from it would be other fresh joiners.

@anon3825968

A list of use cases means you know you want an implant but you don’t know what for

To be fair, I am pretty sure I’ve seen a lot more people posting “I got “this” implant, now can anyone help me think of how could I use it?” than “I want to unlock my car, which implant should I buy?”…

remember:

• “no one in it’s sane mind would ever do that”

often leads to the opposite result from:

• “no one would ever do that”

@Pilgrimsmaster

No sarcasm, genuine comment

Thanks!
Although I still think I deserved some sarcasm.

I mean… I only realise how much I post once I scroll up!

[anon3825968]

@Eyeux

I am pretty sure I’ve seen a lot more people posting “I got “this” implant, now can anyone help me think of how could I use it?”

Yes. I’ve always found this extremely odd. Why on God’s green Earth anyone would inject themselves with something relatively sizeable and pricey at random, or without some kind of usage in mind, is totally beyond me.

But hey, to each his own.

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@Eyeux

Although I still think I deserved some sarcasm.

I mean… I only realise how much I post once I scroll up!

You totally don’t post much or frequently

[Eyeux]

@anon3825968

at random

Because it isn’t “at random”.

They do have a goal in mind. It just happens that having a chip was their primary goal, while for you what to do with a chip is your goal.

In which case, someone could be asking you “why would someone inject themselves with something when they could wear a ring or skin patch to the same effect?”

I mean… technically I could achieve the same access control goals of my chips by using a camera and some AI enhanced facial/gesture detection system.

So, ultimately, having a chip means more to me than just what the chip can do.

It’s a Gestalt thing…

@Pilgrimsmaster

You totally don’t post much or frequently

now that I’ll take with a hint of sarcasm!
Thanks!

[anon3825968]

Hence my saying it’s beyond me, and to each his own

[Eyeux]

True that.

I guess I expanded on your thought just to give @Pilgrimsmaster a little more food for sarcasm

[D34G]

@Pilgrimsmaster

The same reason why early on my joining the forum I put together a bunch of Wikis, to fill the gap where previously there was a void.

I appreciate those Wikis by the way! Good stuff, I have been showing them to a friend of mine who is curious.

@Eyeux

There is a big imbalance here:

• The ones with the most interest in a shift to that format are also the ones with the least capacity to contribute to it.
• The ones with the most capacity to contribute to it, have the least interest.

Ain’t that the truth lol

@Eyeux

I mean… technically I could achieve the same access control goals of my chips by using a camera and some AI enhanced facial/gesture detection system.

By chance have you seen the kick-starter on the OpenCV AI cameras? I got a few and hope to build a few home automation things with them. Mostly tracking my pets

Anyway, my discussion here is in no way stating that the forum is inadequate. It’s great, for the inquisitive mind. I just think presenting tutorials using the KISS method will be a good way to lower the barrier to entry for casual users who want more out of their implant.