Vivokey wearables, 3rd party, user base, 2fa and questions

There is a Catch 22 I see likely throwing a wrench in development from 3rd parties (I could be misreading the market though).

Developing for a device is difficult to justify if the device is not widely used. Installing a chip that doesn’t have a lot of uses is also tougher to justify. In addition, there are folks who are not mentally ready for an implant.

Would a non-implant Spark 2 (or 3) in the form of a wearable possibly expand the number of users, thereby making the services more attractive to develop for?

Counter to my own point - What if you lose your wearable? Is the security risk too much? Could wearables require a pin, but implants not? Would a pin defeat the purpose?

Unrelated: Would love to use my Spark 2 in place of other 2fa systems used in the corporate world. I would pay for that!


Yes this has always been understood. I consider implants to be like molasses - super slow moving but unstoppable and will eventually smother everything in its path. Our approach is no secret, we simply want to encourage individuals to use their implants and enable expanded use cases through API development. Once you get a few people happily using their implants who happen to be in the right place within a company or organization, the idea of expanding the utility of those implants by developing support for them via API integration isn’t such a high hurdle anymore. Of course, this bottom-up approach will take time, but I’ve still got a couple good decades in me.


Wearables will need to have a lower “trust level” than implants, and be made easier to deactivate / remove from systems.

See above :slight_smile:


Any updates on when the apex ring will be available to purchase? :relaxed:


NGL, I’m still not sure if I’m going to get the Apex as an implant or a wearable at first but this is mostly Master Card’s fault… Implants are awesome!


YES! This. All the way! I’ve been sharing my experience with all of my tech-nerd friends in hopes that they will join the cause! Unfortunately, I don’t have a product or service to develop for yet.

EDIT: Not saying this will be a disaster, this is just my favorite Safety/Environmental case study, and everyone should know this trivia.

Thank you for the updates! I am on board, sounds like you’re just way ahead of me!


Hahah yes the Molasses flood is exactly what I was basing my reference on, but like, without directly referring to a horrific disaster to describe my business plan :slight_smile:


Was there ever a discussion with fidesmo about wearables? Sounds like a very obvious starting point since they basically use the same tech as vivokey but in wearables (by that I mean other than rings). It seems like it wouldn’t take much for their wearables to join the ecosystem…


This feels like a stupid question that I might have asked before, but can the Apex Ring or other devices do multiple things at once?

As an example, the Apex ring can do “contactless payment”, “2 factor login & security codes”, and “home & office access.” Could it store all that data at the same time, so I can have the one ring for 3 home keys, 20+ 2FA codes, and a debit card? I feel like you shouldn’t run into a ‘storage’ issue but then again these are tiny chips and it’s not like this data takes up zero space.

The only stupid questions are the ones y’all don’t ask, dears. :blush: As I understand it, if/when payments become supported, all of that will be accessible at once, yes. Y’all wouldn’t have separate door codes though; the high frequency chip’s unique ID would need to be programmed into each door, not the other way around. I’m not sure exactly how the 2FA will be handled in-chip, but I believe that’s what I’ve heard.

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Yup, the Apex chip can support multiple applets simultaneously in individual security domains in the memory. The requesting reader will just provide an AID with its request that identifies which applet to use. Unfortunately there is limited memory and it’s less than we would have liked, but you should be able to support several applets


What is the total memory on the Apex? I thought it was something like 32k

Apex Ring can currently make payments. It is fully certified to do so. The problem right now is that only issuers and banks in the EU work with Fidesmo. We are trying to get a US issuer on board but things are not going well. It has been nearly 6 months since this process has started and still there are no US issuers.
The reason this is a big deal is that the shipping expense to send rings to the EU is extremely high and the margin for wearables is pretty bad if you look at competing products in the EU. We were hoping to launch in the US and basically dominate with the first ever wearable making payments in the US along with all the other things it can do, but you know… This is just typical of VivoKey projects unfortunately. Nothing is lining up in a timely manner.

The Apex chip has about 80kB of usable memory for applets and applet data storage. Again not ideal but it is what it is.


I know a lot of people on here will agree when I say that even with the limited storage of the Apex it is still miles ahead of the others you’ve sold in both capability and storage.


Have you approached first tech credit union? I would have thought that this would be the sort of thing that their customers would love.

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I doubt there would be any traction with First Tech… They aren’t even really technology focused anymore, every since the merger with Addison federal credit union and changed their name to First Tech Federal. They don’t even offer WebAuthN or even yubikey 2fa… Frankly, River Mark and Advantis are more tech focused these days.

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I will take your word for it. I am no longer anywhere near their branches.

This is news to me. Our bank only works with active devices (watches etc) and not passive devices like rings, but many if not most banks here in Australia actually do work with passive rings specifically, and I know this for a fact because I used to get customers not infrequently paying with rings in our retail job. Probably once a week. Don’t know what import or taxes nonsense happens here, but NFC rings are not particularly unusual so it might be an easier market to break into?

Australia is an example of why it’s hard for Apex ring outside the US… banks there sell basic payment rings made by Chinese copycats for $25AUD for crying out loud… no possible way we could ever go into Australia even with banks there getting on board the tokenization system.


I take your point but Australians do love to embrace technology and given the other functions of the Apex, I wonder if it would not take off here.

I fully intend to get the apex flex when available even if it does not have a payment option because of its other capabilities. I will happily pay $$$for something of that quality.

As a parallel I can buy sunglasses from China for a few $ but if I want quality then I go to a premium provider and am prepared to pay for it.


Ok, I think that I should retract my previous post and get the implant when it comes out…

I doubt my local banks will ever add support for anything other than an apple watch. Third world problems…