Dead Apex and Flex implant warranty?

Support
1

Finally managed to get my Apex installed, about a month ago.
It healed up very nicely. Unfortunately I have never been able to get a read on the thing.
Also I didn’t test it before installation. Just kinda assumed it would be fine :confused:
No idea if it broke before or during install.

Due to the uuuh… legal complicatedness of implantations, where I live, there is no video.
Both my installer and myself agree that not having cameras present, during the procedure, is better for everyone involved.

Besides that, he was surprised, when I brought up the idea.
Did DT notify its installers about this bit of the Flex warranty?

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I know you have been around a while (welcome back by the way) , and I know you what you are doing.

Fair assumption, All of mine have been fine also, xSeries in a needle can be a challenging read, but the sterilized packs I’ve ALWAYS played with/tested/ set up before installing.

You must have far better will power than me, just leaving it sitting there before installing

Thats a decent time to at least get a read.

I’ve had mine for quite a whlie now, and its not my easiest to get a read from, but it does work.

I’m assuming you have used your PM3 and phone with no luck.

What sort of phone do you have?
Are you trying through Fidesmo or a generic NFC app, TagInfo, NFC Tools etc?

What sort of tools were used for the install outside of needle or scalpel (if any)

I’ve only ever had one PCB flex fail previously, but it started as an intermittent fault.
I think the chip seperated from the Board, (It’s still inside me, so I don’t know conclusively)
I could get a read when I put pressure on the chip, but eventually it just stopped working.

I’m not suggesting you put pressure on yours, but do wonder if you have tried everything else, if the same thing happend to you.

Although, the Apex Flex is newer than my one that failed, and the solder technique has been improved.

:man_shrugging:

3

Thanks :slight_smile: . Been lurking the last little while.

I have so far been a little neurotic about not touching the sterile pouch at all prior to installation. Had this one sitting untouched for almost a year. It did drive me a little mad tho :slight_smile:

I used a KBR1, ACR122u and my Phone.
My Phone is one of those Nothing Phone (1) hipster things. It is able to read my XSIID and BeUno. Albeit reading them can be a bit of a challenge.
My preferred app for reading implants is NXP’s TagInfo.

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My Installer used the needle and two sizes of dermal elevator to create the Pocket.
Not sure if the elevators ever touched the Implant. I tend to faint from seeing my own blood, so I wasn’t looking.

5

Frustrating, if something was going to easily read it, One of those should have.

Mine too, for Chip ID.

I do prefer NFC tools for reading and writing (although, TagWriter is still pretty good)
My TagInfo takes about 5+ seconds to read fully
This is what I see (what you should expect)

Screenshot_20231125_115053_TagInfo
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On your phone, did you set up Fidesmo?

I’m sure Amal will be along shortly and give you some ACTUAL answers

:hamster_emoji_gif:

Although, I wouldn’t really blame him if he denied the Warranty because of the lack of evidence, but who knows
:man_shrugging:

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6

thanks for the info.

Never managed to get Fidesmo set up. Can’t register my Apex, so the app doesn’t really do anything.

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Oh that sucks man. No acr122u reaction is surprising.

The best read location and orientation for the acr122u is this;

Screenshot_20231124-165928
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As long as you have a red LED on the reader, it should beep and the led should turn green once good coupling is achieved.

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8

I would like to take this opportunity to explain a German word.
The word is “Vorführeffekt”.
It describes a situation in which you are trying to demonstrate an issue to somebody else.
However, no matter how often you have been able to reproduce the issue beforehand, as soon as you try to demonstrate it, the issue disappears.

Super awkward.

Anyway.
Using the ACR122u in the ideal orientation described above, I can get the UID of the Apex.

Thanks for the tip.
Maybe the healing time on this one is just gonna be longer, than I anticipated.

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9

If you’ve worked in IT long enough, you’ve experienced this countless times. I’m glad I finally have a word to call it. :laughing:

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The closest Maxim I could think of would be
English
“Sods law”

American
“Murphys law”

Not a direct comparison to Vorführeffekt (Demonstration Effect), but used more often in English speaking countries (that I am aware of).

Both loosely meaning
“If something can go wrong, it will go wrong”
and often times, that includes when trying to explain / demonstrate “a thing”

I’m not really a huge fan of tgem, as they tend to focus on negative outcomes.

I like Vorführeffekt MUCH better

Added to my Vocabulary, thanks @Schlaf

Also, And far more importantly

FUCK YEAH, awesome. :pbjtime:

Just a bit more waiting

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Germans have such an amazing vocabulary :slight_smile:

I mean, just imagine… this word is so old… So clearly it came from some situation where a guy was trying to show somebody else some sort of wooden cog that he handcrafted with his woodworking tools and been like, the little glockenspiel he tried to install it into just kept hiccuping and not working and he just like yelled out “gottverdammt vorführeffekt”!

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This one is pretty well-known in Germany as well :smile:
But it has more of a fatalistic approach, I think, while the problem with the Vorführeffekt is that it will usually make you look like an idiot. Like “yeaaah, I did it the same way 100 times already, and no, it didn’t work” - “oh, try a 101st time, please…” - and it works. Sigh.
Or you get your car to the mechanic because it does some stupid things, and as soon as they look at it, it behaves like the best and most reliable car of all times.

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Maybe the healing time on this one is just gonna be longer, than I anticipated.

So how long did you end up waiting?
I’ve got mine installed 4 days ago and I was kind of hoping to be able to read it with my (i)phone by now

14

2 weeks is more realistic, it may be more, could be less but that is a better approximation.

If you don’t have any RSP or MFGC they may also help

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15

The read performance of my Implant kept improving for about another month or so.
Not sure if it is purely due to healing, or myself memorizing the sweet spot.

With the ACR122U, I have an easy time reading the implant.
With my Nothing phone 1 it remains pretty difficult. That may be down to the phone though. It doesn’t work super well with my BeUno either.

Haven’t had the chance to compare it to another phone unfortunately.

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16

Positioning is really important for getting a good read. Are you using the top of the phone to kind of chop down on the implant? Androids usually have the antenna in the center of the back but iPhone did a bunch of engineering so it kinda points out the end like an old IR TV remote.

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17

To clarify what Satur9 is saying, As your APEX is a Flex, you should be positioning the antenna Parallel to the APEX like

=

If you have xSeries, you’ll want the antenna to be perpendicular to the xSeries, more like

+

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18

I have tested the Apex Flex when it was still sealed, both with an Android phone and with an iPhone. I’ve gotten the hang of it in regard to the angle and speed of the phone to be able to connect with the chip.
I’m sure it will become readable in the coming days: it’s been inside now for 8 days, so no stress here if the phone can’t read it just yet.
I’ve tied an ACR122U to my macbook and that sensor reacted to the chip (I have no macos drivers for the nfc reader, so I couldnt test it with actual software: it just reacted with a red led and a beep)

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19

It’s been two weeks now and I must say I’m geting anxious.
There is no swelling going on but still no action on an iPhone or an Android phone.

IMG_9083
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20

Ok let’s cover the basics;

  • Who performed the installation?

  • Do you have video / photos of the process?

  • Was the implant autoclaved or treated by the installer before installation, or was it simply dropped from the pouch to the sterile field?

  • What tools were used? Did they use the needle or some other cutting tool? Did they pick up the Apex with their hands or did they use a tool to pick it up and place it?

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