what I would like to know is if it would be possible to put the micro capsules from e-ink displays into tattoo ink then have a sort of device that can lay on top of the skin and change the image.
what I would like to know is if it would be possible to put the micro capsules from e-ink displays into tattoo ink then have a sort of device that can lay on top of the skin and change the image.
Iām in no way an expert but I believe that the whole idea of a real tattoo is that the pigment gets injected at such a depth that the pigment gets encapsulated and locked into position. This ink cannot be moved after this.
Nice Go!!
Seems like a promising shot!
As suspected, even a tiny bit of brightness is enough.
ok, comments:
Ham is meat. Meat is Muscle.
If I recall correctly, Muscle tissue absorbs more light but scatters less.
Which means the image could be more visible but should be less nitid, through skin.
Now the big question is: How thick was that ham slice?
Looks like 0.5mm, but thatās just me guessing.
Following this, I would make a test in a darker room.
Because one factor which could be at play here is that the external light is crossing the ham, bouncing off the white portions of the screen, then crossing it out again.
That would still be a positive result. For some people at least.
Itās similar to how we can see the āblueā of some peopleās veins.
now to an offtopic:
Exactly.
So if weāre talking about a micro capsule that changes colour based on an electric stimulus, it could potentially work. Or our skins natural electric tension could mess it up.
If weāre talking about micro capsules which move along the display to generate images based on the electric stimulus, then itās a no go.
The capsule has pigment inside it that rearranges itself, the capsule itself does not move.
The only serious questions are;
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what are the sizes of the capsules vs ink wells typically trapped in skin.
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are the capsules resilient enough to be hammered into the skin using tattoo needles which push ink in, they do not inject. Will the capsules survive?
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are capsule materials biosafe? The capsule itself, the liquid inside, the pigments, etc. What if any or all of that entered the bloodstream? Cancer risk? Cytotoxic?
Assuming the capsules and materials inside are totally safe (unlikely) and they can embed safely into tissues, then yes a field overlay could probably be put down over the skin to change themā¦ but accuracy and field strength will be challenges as the distance between capsules and field emitters in a display grid and what youād be dealing with in a extra-dermal overlay are fundamentally different.
The first challenge here could be tested by taking a e-ink display and simply trying to change it with an external overlay with a slice or two of ham between. If thatās not possible then no point trying to overcome the biosafety issues.
Thereās also the matter of temperature.
for example, go to a Sauna once and your tattoo might be ruined permanently!
Most e-ink displays Iāve read about would start getting permanent damage if heated up to 50 celsius. I wonder what a constant temperature of 38 would do to itā¦ or an immediate hot shower, intense exercising or sauna experience would do.
And also the distribution āalong the Z axisā.
in an e-paper display the microcapsules are pretty much well distributed, and this is taken into consideration, especially on colour e-ink displays (where different sizes of the particles make them move faster, therefore coming to the surface before other particles, which makes the speed of the presented electromagnetic field important for the final colour result.
Given a skin medium with some capsules closer and others further away from the surface, plus any delay/absorption/interference from the skinā¦
I wonder if by the time you got the further away capsules particles to get to the surface, then it might have been too long for the more superficial microcapsules, and they end up with another colour.
Thatās a great initial test
although the ham slices would lack our natural electric tension. itās tiny but I wonder how the e-ink particles would react to that.
and then my hopes:
Pigment which changes colour based on your emotional state!
According to the datasheet the display I want to use has an operation temperature of 0Ā°C to 50Ā°C and a storage temperature between -25Ā°C and 70Ā°C.
The topic seems to shift a bit towards inplanting individual e-paper capsules instead of this display as a whole. To me it seems more straight forward to see if the display can be implanted since it already has all the working protocols and layers to work properly.
I think thatās the one thing we all do best than being techies!
but the temperature question is valid for both cases.
For exampleā¦ still talking about your original concept, what would happen to the implant if you get into a sauna?
Or if you want to have a dip in one of those natural volcanic pools like they have in iceland?
Or if you have the same mental habit of washing the dishes by hand in 70 degrees celsius hot water like I do?
Or in a much smaller scale, whatās the damage that being on a constant temperature of 38 degrees (I know most people are 36, but better give it a margin) could cause?
Not sure if those displays are designed for constant high temperatures?
And what about the impact of intense exercise? (which increases the temperature of the skin)
Thereās a good thread from R in regards to their testing a xBT they had in their body in regards to high heat and duration saunas
Minimal change in body temperature was detectedā¦ I think .5-1 degree celsiusā¦. whatever that means
its almost like humans are giant bags of self regulating water and it takes a great deal to change the temp
This.
Iām enough kid of the 80s that I recently bought a pretty nice āmood ringā - I loved those things as a child, and while I now know they just change colour based on temperature, I always liked the thought of something visibly changing because of how you feel. Itās just beautiful.
Thing is, the xBT sits deeper than an average tattooā¦ āinsideā body temperature is very stable, usually varying only a few degrees, but skin temperature is quite a difference. If Iām in the cold, my skin temperature can drop seriously while my xBT is still more or less in its normal range - say, some degrees colder, but not that much.
I donāt know which layer of skin does the most of that isolation-part, but the ātattoo pigments are placed hereā-layer might be exposed to quite a lot of temperature changes.
I was also wondering about this, if a sauna would change your body temperature too much you would feel uncomfortable in minutes and would leave anyways. All enzymes in your body operate at a specific target temperature, and if I remember correctly from biology class even a body temperature of 40Ā°C could be deadly for some people.
That is interesting. do you know if was that on surface temperature?
Because this implant will apparently need to be very superficially implanted.
Also, depending on the e-ink microcapsules technology, 5 degrees might be enough to put it into the permanent damage zone.
Exactly my concern.
For the implant version, it might sit even more superficial than the tattoo version.
yeeees!!
Hahā¦ feels like you havenāt been to a proper sauna.
Internal body temperature. Yes.
The sauna/shower/hot pool angle is about skin surface temperature.
As @Eriequiet and @Coma pointed out, we are really good at regulating our internal temperature. but extremities and skin surface (where the implant would sit) arenāt that great at maintaining it (since thatās pretty much where a good chunk of the āregulating magicā happens).
Thereās also my other concern: do we know what happens to e-ink when exposed to constant 38 degrees temperature for a long time?
I havenāt dug much, but didnāt find any study on that on a first glance.
Iām directly in contact with the manufacturer of these displays, I could ask them about the temperature guidelines and critical temperature of irreversible damage
Also, we are eating chicken soup In a few days, so I will try to use the skin on the display as well.
Edit: The display has a built in thermometer, we could implement something that the display cannot be changed if not within safe operating range. The storing temperature is higher than the operating temperature, so I think it might be possible. I know saunas are hot but I doubt that the temperature inside the skin is also as hot as outside.
Clever!
Thatās neat!
That is clever.
My concern isā¦ what causes the irreversible damage?
Is it because the high temperature changes irreversibly the viscosity of the medium where the charged particles lie?
Or is it because by moving the charged particles while the liquid is less viscous, you make the particles jump into an āair pocketā that doesnāt get to see the medium again? (or anything like that)
Anyway, I think you know exactly whatās my point by now. ^^
Temperature insideā¦ as in inside the muscle layer: true.
But temperature inside as in 0.5mm deep? thatās still within the depth where our thermal regulatory exchanges happen
The more visibility we want, the more superficial the implant would need to be, therefore the more susceptible to a wider temperature variation it will be as well.
BTW, please donāt take my questions as disencouragement.
Quite the opposite! I do believe (and hope) this can be done! Just think we should try and tackle all the potential issues from the get go!
I do not, donāt you worry. Sharing your ideas and concerns is really appreciated!
I just contacted the supplier btw, usually he replies very quickly to my e-mails so I expect to give you some more clarification later this day or maybe tomorrow. I asked him about the safe operating temperatures and at what temperature the display starts to break down.
Iām light-skinned, and as a result you can see my veins in my wrist pretty clearly. Everywhere else though theyāre mostly invisible.
Looks like the depth of veins goes anywhere from 0.4-2mm
oe-25-21-25741.pdf (4.4 MB)
Install depth will probably be pretty critical for this application, and Iām not sure bodymod artists have that level of control over the process.
I also think that skin Temperature and blood pressure could be rather important for some people and how visible the implant would be. For me personally when my skin gets cold i can see even small veins clearly and my skin is almost white (not much sun in germany) and if i get a bit warm my skin is so blood saturated that no veins are visible at all. This can happen in seconds for me and iām sure there are a lot of more extreme cases.
Thatās why I was pointing that the implant needs to be very superficial.
Very few would.
Itās easier to implant consistently in the muscle fascia layer, where thereās a natural pocket forming, but then we might be 4mm deep. maybe even a full cm if itās on the back.
although I see this as a challenge, not a blocker.
That and the likelihood this implant could only work under āless pigmented skinā
This is exactly why the location I thought about was on the forearm (not hairy side). I train fairly often in the gym and have a light skin tone, this means that I can see most of my veins going through there. I think (pure guesswork) that an e-paper implant there would work for me, but most likely not for everyone.
I thought about this before and unfortunately I donāt think that this concept will ever work for everyone, except when backlight is added (almost impossible since you need constant power for that).
This project is designed for you. So as long as it works for yourself, great!
everyone else already benefits from your learnings, regardless!
That was just an observation.
the veins would add even more complexity to the instalation.
and to the healing process
Also, more reason to triple proof the implant against stress damage.
A simple test could be to keep the e-paper on, hooked to a battery, then place it where you want the implant to sit, and put a compression band/sock/something on top, applying pressure to keep the implant flush to your arm.
Then go to the gym.
At the end, wait until you cool down and only then take it out and check.
This might be a destructive test, thoughā¦
That is a great idea! I will first try the not connected display because itās easier, the project currently only exists on a breadboard.
I also realized that I forgot to mention something, the display relies on a couple of passive components like diodes, capacitors and inductors. The smallest I could get within the specs are 0402 packages which are very small, but the inductor needs to be 1A tolerant according to the datasheet. Those inductors are unfortunately quite chunky. I have no idea why since the display plus microcontroller pulled only 5mA at 5V and even less at 3.3V. I hope this is not a too big issue.
Passive components: