LF of NExT Implant not reading after 3 Weeks, HF Works

[landwirt]

Thanks for the Quick answer

The results of hw tune:

[usb] pm3 --> hw tune
[=] ---------- Reminder ------------------------
[=] `hw tune` doesn't actively tune your antennas,
[=] it's only informative.
[=] Measuring antenna characteristics, please wait...
[/] 10
[=] ---------- LF Antenna ----------
[+] LF antenna: 37.81 V - 125.00 kHz
[+] LF antenna: 30.50 V - 134.83 kHz
[+] LF optimal: 37.81 V - 125.00 kHz
[+] Approx. Q factor (*): 5.8 by frequency bandwidth measurement
[+] Approx. Q factor (*): 11.0 by peak voltage measurement
[!] Contradicting measures seem to indicate you're running a PM3_GENERIC firmware on a RDV4
[!] False positives is possible but please check your setup
[+] LF antenna is OK
[=] ---------- HF Antenna ----------
[+] HF antenna: 31.58 V - 13.56 MHz
[+] Approx. Q factor (*): 9.2 by peak voltage measurement
[+] HF antenna is OK

(*) Q factor must be measured without tag on the antenna

[+] Displaying LF tuning graph. Divisor 88 (blue) is 134.83 kHz, 95 (red) is 125.00 kHz.

[Jirvin]

LF coupling with an antenna and the proxmark easy LF antenna is finicky at best.
You can try using lf tune and watch the voltage drop which should indicate if the implant is pulling some energy. Once you’ve observed a drop you can issue multiple searches from the one command by using lf search; lf search; lf search etc.

Your LF antenna looks normal from that graph and that output so no obvious issues there.
It does just seem like its more to do with strange coupling of the implant and the Easy antenna.

[landwirt]

I’ve tried lf tune, but the lowest Voltage I can get to show is ~37.800 mV. Normal Value (without any Voltage Drop) is ~38.200 mV. lf search on the spot with the Highest Voltage Drop also give out:

[-] No known 125/134 kHz tags found!
[=] Couldn’t identify a chipset

[ethan_rose]

I had the same problem and it look me ~3 weeks to get a good read on it. The trick for me was removing the cover on the proxmark RDV4.01, flipping the LF antenna out to the side and using the ‘Accurate’ setting on the Q switch.

Now that I’ve cloned the key onto it, I don’t have any problems getting a read.

[Pilgrimsmaster]

As Jirvin said

@Jirvin

LF coupling with an antenna and the proxmark easy LF antenna is finicky at best.

but it is doable. And once you find the spot you will find it slightly easier to relay each time.

@landwirt

When positioning the Ring LF Antenna perpendicular to the arm facing side of the Chip

@landwirt

I’ve also tried to move the antenna in millimeter Increments and trying the Commands again.
I am also not touching the Antenna posts.

The above tells me you are doing the correct thing.
The next thing I would add is, maybe some more pressure.
Press down as you try to read (lf tune) see if you can get that voltage drop we are after.

I imagine you have from your description above, but watch this video for some more tips.(sorry if it’s sucking eggs)

This one from about the 5min mark

The T5577 chip is awesome!

and this one all the way through

Unboxing the Proxmark3 Easy

and just leave this one going in the background whilst you are trying to get your LF to read and bump up the DT video viewing time

Melting an RFID card

[Jirvin]

@ethan_rose

on the proxmark RDV4.01

This was something that I started recommending for those with an RDV4 and, from my experience, works better than the ProxLF. However, OP appears to have an Easy thus this isnt a viable option at present.

Image Showing Flipped Stock LF Antenna | RDV4

Another idea Ive had mixed success with is trying to locate the HF end of the NExT with hf tune then a read to confirm the positioning is correct. Once the HF side is found, the LF side is the opposite end of the implant so the idea would be to have the orientation of the implant in mind and try finding the LF side with lf tune again.

This may seem like a loosing battle but anytime I want to write to the LF side of my NExT, I spend ~5mins each time finding the right coupling, ensuring I can do it consistently (by reading) the issuing write operations.

Again, you can issue several commands in the one line by separating them with semicolons.
Example: lf search; lf search; lf search; lf search will issue 4 LF search commands back to back as each of the previous commands finish.

[anon3825968]

@ethan_rose

flipping the LF antenna out to the side and using the ‘Accurate’ setting on the Q switch.

That’s really clever. Thank you for sharing that trick. I need to try that: the ProxLF antenna really isn’t much to write home about. At least mine isn’t.

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@anon3825968

ProxLF antenna really isn’t much to write home about. At least mine isn’t.

I imagine it would be unlikely that you missed it, but did you ever see this thread? ( You didn’t post in it !)

[Zwack]

Which thread?

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@Zwack

Which thread?

You’re so pedantic, wanting information and links I implied that I would provide

Geez, here you go

DT LF Antenna issue reading implant

So while I was trying to fix my pm3 easy, the micro usb went and shat the bed, I got an offer on a VR camera I was selling and decided to go ahead and grab the RDV4 and the DT antenna. The issue I am running into is reading the LF side of my NExT. I had one luck read/write when cloning my word access card. I have cloned it to a card style T5577 card but since then I can seem to get a proper read on it and I’ve tried various different distances and orientations just to see. running the lf tune …

[anon3825968]

@Zwack

Which thread?

Thanks bubba. I was about to ask the same thing, but I figured I’d let someone confirm that I wasn’t the only one thoroughly confused by Pilgrim’s post first

@Pilgrimsmaster

did you ever see this thread?

I don’t recall seeing it.

[landwirt]

Thanks for the Answer,

after trying maybe 20x lf search with pressure I found a spot I could get a read.

But it shows up as an “Indala Chip”. As I understand the T5577 can emulate/function as a Indala, but shouldn’t the xEM/T5577 Chip of the NeXT come preprogrammed as an EM410x ?

[=] NOTE: some demods output possible binary
[=] if it finds something that looks like a tag
[=] False Positives ARE possible
[=]
[=] Checking for known tags…
[=]
[+] Indala (len 322) Raw: 80000000500220040000002088002040001420088912a28421000002
[+] Valid Indala ID found!
[=] Couldn’t identify a chipset

But it still cannot identify the T5577 chipset

I got repeating Reads of the Indala ID, but as soon as I removed the Proxmark from my Hand to copy the Text, I was unable to get a read again (tried like 20x again around that position)

I have no clue what Indala is used for / how it works.

But I tried the following:
Took one of the, with the Proxmark included, T5577 cards that I had programmed as an EM410x (which functions perfectly). I programmed the Card with the following command:

[ usb ] pm3 —> lf indala clone -r 80000001b23523a6c2e31eba3cbee4afb3c6ad1fcf649393928c14e5

[=] Preparing to clone Indala 224 bit to T55x7 raw 80000001B23523A6C2E31EBA3CBEE4AFB3C6AD1FCF649393928C14E5
[+] Blk | Data
[+] ----±-----------
[+] 00 | 000820E0
[+] 01 | 80000001
[+] 02 | B23523A6
[+] 03 | C2E31EBA
[+] 04 | 3CBEE4AF
[+] 05 | B3C6AD1F
[+] 06 | CF649393
[+] 07 | 928C14E5
[=] Block0 write detected, running detect to see if validation is possible
[+] Done
[?] Hint: try lf indala reader to verify

that’s the example Commands given by the Proxmark when typing lf indala clone

After writing I was unable to read the Card and saw the same error as with my Implant

[ usb ] pm3 → lf search
[=] NOTE: some demods output possible binary
[=] if it finds something that looks like a tag
[=] False Positives ARE possible
[=]
[=] Checking for known tags…
[=]
[-] No known 125/134 kHz tags found!
[=] Couldn’t identify a chipset

When doing a lf em 410x clone --id 0F0368568B right after I im able to read the Card again:

[usb] pm3 → lf search

[=] NOTE: some demods output possible binary
[=] if it finds something that looks like a tag
[=] False Positives ARE possible
[=]
[=] Checking for known tags…
[=]
[+] EM 410x ID 0F0368568B
[+] EM410x ( RF/64 )
[=] -------- Possible de-scramble patterns ---------
[+] Unique TAG ID : F0C0166AD1
[=] HoneyWell IdentKey
[+] DEZ 8 : 06837899
[+] DEZ 10 : 0057169547
[+] DEZ 5.5 : 00872.22155
[+] DEZ 3.5A : 015.22155
[+] DEZ 3.5B : 003.22155
[+] DEZ 3.5C : 104.22155
[+] DEZ 14/IK2 : 00064481678987
[+] DEZ 15/IK3 : 001034014845649
[+] DEZ 20/ZK : 15001200010606101301
[=]
[+] Other : 22155_104_06837899
[+] Pattern Paxton : 259822731 [0xF7C948B]
[+] Pattern 1 : 9750181 [0x94C6A5]
[+] Pattern Sebury : 22155 104 6837899 [0x568B 0x68 0x68568B]
[=] ------------------------------------------------
[+] Valid EM410x ID found!
[+] Chipset detection: T55xx
[?] Hint: try lf t55xx commands

But I am still unable to read my Implant again

Also the lowest Voltage I can get with lf tune is 37800 mV (normal Voltage, with the Proxmark far away from any Metal is 38200 mV). Is that a normal Voltage Drop for the NexT LF Side?

[Jirvin]

Indala is a common false positive for LF searches. Id usually recommend to confirm that output by getting another 2 or 3 searches of the same card and ensure its the Indala ID it comes out as.

If this is a stock NExT, as in the LF side hasnt been written to before, out of the box it should read as an EM (I tried to fact check but couldnt find a source) tag so it reading as an Indala leads me to believe more that its a false positive.

I would be interested to see where and how your implant looks in your hand. My NExT in R0 is quite visible when I flex my fist and doing so dramatically increases my read success.

[amal]

@Jirvin

out of the box it should read as an EM

True

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@landwirt

20x lf search with pressure I found a spot I could get a read.

But it shows up as an “Indala Chip”

Generally when we see unexpected results it is either:
Firmware mismatch ( Pretty sure yours looked good )

or

You are not Quuiittee in the right spot,

It sounds like you are a gnats cock away from the right spot, Frustrating I know, but when you finally get a read
Something like:

pm3 → lf search
Blah Blah Blah

Checking for known tags:

Valid EM41xx Chip Found
Try lf EM41xx commands

and can replicate it a few times, you are good to write! so have your script ready to cut and paste. ( Or Up arrow if you have it in your command history.
The tricky thing comes, not moving AT ALL when trying to type etc. If you have an assistant that will help also.

It is more difficult / takes longer to write compared to a read.

Anyway, that all comes AFTER you get a read.

Keep us updated as to your progress and good luck.

[landwirt]

Ok, I will try again to find that reeeaalll small Spot where I can get a EM Read

Another Question: Is that Voltage Drop normal?:

@landwirt

Also the lowest Voltage I can get with lf tune is 37800 mV (normal Voltage, with the Proxmark far away from any Metal is 38200 mV). Is that a normal Voltage Drop for the NexT LF Side?

In the meanwhile, here are some Pictures of my hand (The Chip is directly under that black line):

Pictures

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@landwirt

nother Question: Is that Voltage Drop normal?:

Check this post, Amal will answer better than I could

XAC does not read NExT LF

Man… this is not looking good… that sucks. I really hope it’s not a problem with the T5577 chip, but it is not looking good. I would try doing an lf tune command on your proxmark3… with the iceman firmware this will start a looping voltage measurement that should look something like this; [usb] pm3 --> lf tune [=] Measuring LF antenna at 125.00 kHz, click pm3 button or press Enter to exit [=] 30499 mV / 30 V / 31 Vmax As you bring your NExT to the ProxLF antenna in a parallel orientation to t…

@landwirt

In the meanwhile, here are some Pictures of my hand

It looks like a good shallow install and you really shouldn’t be struggling as much as you are,
It is unlikely a faulty implant, but Proxmarks can be finnicky when dealing with xSeries implants.
That’s what I think we are seeing…

[landwirt]

Ok, so it’s now been four weeks since I got the NExT installed.

In the Last Days, I tried to read maybe 300 times, but cannot for the life of me get a successful LF read

Only one false Cotag ID read:

[=] NOTE: some demods output possible binary
[=] if it finds something that looks like a tag
[=] False Positives ARE possible
[=]
[=] Checking for known tags…
[=]
Searching for COTAG tag…
[+] COTAG Found: FC 254, CN: 16382 Raw: F3FC7FFFFFFF7FFFFFF9EFFEFDFE9FFE
[+] Valid COTAG ID found!

I really don’t know what to do next. I’ve tried every position.

Voltage Drop seems to be normal, as Amal said in that linked Comment.

But It also looks like the Chip is alive given from the Voltage Drop (but that could also come from the ferrite Core, right?) And the false reads I have been getting.

Any ideas what to try?

It cannot be normal that the Chip is sooo difficult to read after 4 Weeks with such a good installation If I cannot even get a read with the proxmarks big antenna & pressure against the Skin, how would I be able to use it in the Real World on readers, Door Knobs, etc.?

[ethan_rose]

I know it’s not ideal but can you find someone with a Proxmark RDV4?

[Jirvin]

There will always be a voltage drop given the copper coil and the ferrite but this doesnt mean the chip is alive/healthy; just that something is pulling some voltage.

The challenge here is that the proxmark Easy is a cheap, mass produced clone of another device so the quality isnt amazing.
Its also very common, given those conditions, that the LF antenna isnt tuned anywhere near 125kHz but close enough that LF cards can be read reliably.
The LF antenna is also made to couple with flat antennae found in cards and fobs, not a round antenna that is present in an implant.
Since the LF antenna is most likely going to have bad tuning, you may be better with some distance between the implant and the antenna. This should, hopfully, offset the bad tuning of the LF antenna and allow it to couple with the implant antenna. Ive personally found I can get consistent reads with 1-3mm of distance/air between my skin and the proxmark antenna.

All of these factors combined is what you are working with and trying to overcome. I find it very difficult to read my NExT with my Easy, slightly less difficult with my RDV4 (using the flipped antenna) and even less difficult with some PACs readers.

Your implant looks shallow enough that there should be no inherent difficulty penetrating the skin and, since its been >=4 weeks post install, there should be no swelling/fluid build up to make things more difficult.