M31 revival? Not yet, just letting you know though

aaaaaabsolutely is! And being able to fit it into my finger at all…

But I feel a little sorry for Amal now… he presents a really good idea, explains why another idea might be a problem ('cause it’s too expensive) and everyone - yeah, me included! - just jumps around and wants a 500,- - titanium-coated magnet :smile:

Crowd fund it.

If enough people support it, we get it. If not, no one loses.

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hmm… ok let’s explore this idea then…

I don’t want to give 10% to kickstarter (7% + 3% processing typically) for this, so let’s say I need $10k for a small batch of 20 mags plus a few additional magnets for destructive testing which I will pay for myself. If I put up a pre-sale page for a Ti coated sensing magnets, and set a goal of say $10,400… so 20 people * $500 + $20 packing and shipping = $10k batch + $400 for packing and shipping…

What would the process be if the pre-sale didn’t reach the goal? Refunds suck because now processors like PayPal and Stripe KEEP their damn fees even if you refund a purchase… so, a $520 charge after 2.9% and $0.30 processing fee turns into $504.62 for us, a total cost of $15.38 per “backer”, times 20 is $307.60 if we end up having to refund everyone… not terrible, but also not awesome. If everyone agreed to just accept a refund minus $15.38 as a “risk for playing the game”, then yeah that’s fine.

Or we could explore the idea of something like a half-refund of $250 and instead we send a polymer magnet (assuming process issues are sorted).

Let’s work this out and if we can 1) agree on parameters, 2) identify at least 15 people who are willing and able to go for this, then I will have another phone call with the mag people and see about setting up a batch and get the pre-sale page up online.

There are two things to consider;

  1. The mag people are not what I would call “psyched” about doing this and somewhat concerned about where these might end up. If we do this, it may be a one-shot only.

  2. For a successful “campaign” we would need this community to do outreach… a lot of it… people with a spare $500 laying around and want a magnet are gonna be super rare… and while we can keep a campaign up for 30 days, stretching this into months is going to for sure get people reconsidering and wanting their money back… so it has to be a quick campaign that gets wrapped up one way or the other in very short order. To do it successfully would mean all hands on deck… lock and load social media platforms… break out the email address book ammunition… and keep firing until you’re out of ammo… that kind of thing.

Please share thoughts everyone… let’s see if we can work this out.


Tell me where to send my money! I want one! If I only get a portion of my money back, so be it. Let’s do this people!

Phew - that’s why I love this forum!
First and foremost - I’m in.

I like both ideas of a potential refund - 15$ “risk fee” is okay for me, a polymer magnet would be as well, provided that baby passes all the brutal tests you’re going to do to it and provided I find a space where to put it :wink:

Two things that keep me thinking, though…

What if they don’t pass the tests?
And, second…

I don’t think those magnets will fail at some time, because the coating can’t fail; but if they ever do - I guess there is no lifetime-warranty possible here, right?

  • How about people put their feelers out as you suggested Amal, and redirect them to this thread; specifically the Poll below

  • Including to the likes of BioHack.Me, Magician guilds, Body Mods, DT Distributors (KSEC) etc

  • Plus I can hunt through the forums and post a thread and @Mention a bunch of people through the thread that have shown an interest in the past, in an attempt to drag them back!?

Also, would this Poll be of benefit?
Just let me know @Amal and I will make it live
It has a cut off date of 30th Sept
Single vote
Voters shown ( Gives an “almost commitment” to the purchase)

Let me know if you want anything changed or added

If you want the Poll, Do you want it in this thread or did you want me to start a new one?

image image image

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Out of curiosity, what’s the density of the polymer? I know it doesn’t float, so it’s at least more than 1.

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This for the titanium coated m31’s, correct?



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That’s all the confirmation I need. I’m in for sure now.

RE, Timeframe:
It’s basically the beginning of September now. November and December can be financially tight for a lot of people trying to go big for Christmas. Might be best to avoid that if we can, still alot is gonna be dependent on the manufaturer. I doubt they’ll want an on again / off again commitment. We’ll need to strike while the iron is hot. Also a short timeframe is probably ideal, but we’ll need time to spread the word. Lot’s of self conflicting ideals here. Also, I gotta gather money that I wasn’t planning on.

RE, Nomenclature:
Can we please not call them all M31’s? Maybe the polymers can be M31p’s, and the titanium ones M31t’s. Or if the titanium magnets are 3mm, then I like “Tritanium”. Mostly though, I wan’t to avoid a constant confusion between the different styles.

RE, R&D:
I’d definitely keep looking into the poly magnets. First, it’ll let you move the back stock of M31’s and recover some funding. Second, the Tritanium® will likely not be available long, so the Poly becomes the fall back for everyone who misses the Tritanium® boat. I might even want to have multiple types, some for fingertips, others for arms, etc.

I’m definitely down. The number depends on time and fundraising. 85% chance I can swing two in relatively short order. Maybe 20% chance I can do more.

Amal, you may want to consider not giving in to incessant nagging in the future, we’ll only want more. :crazy_face:

Also, sorry if I sicced everyone on ya. But you did kinda chum the waters with your fancy magnet talk.

yeah so… if they don’t pass, no shippie and we resolve with the factory… ultimately it would mean delays. As for failures, I am confident in the testing process, but I would also keep some additional units in inventory for those eventualities. For example, even though I am utterly out of stock of xGLO and will not be making any more, lifetime warranty dictates that I keep at least some for possible replacements… assuming someone would want one if theirs broke inside them. Those are simply not for sale. The same would be true for these.


true… and delivery timelines would be pretty long… likely a few months from the time of sending them the cash… then testing is another 30-60 days… so yeah.

sure, nothing is set yet anyway but for now let’s call them “mags” since the specs are totally unset yet.

it’s definitely still in process… next week i’ve set aside a chunk of time to take another crack at it… more testing… etc.

but that’s how you guys stay happy… happy cyborgs - that’s the goal

no prob… chum away chum.

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Doesn’t the forum have an email address for everyone?

Could you push out a mass email? When the time is right of course.

I’m thinking of lurkers and those who have faded away. Not so much for the active members, even though you’ll probably hafta push it out to everyone.


But count me in for a titanium one. Just give me like 30 day notice for payment if you can.


Okay, that sounds fine for me!

And that sounds even better! Don’t think they will ever fail, but good to know that there are some “put aside” just for the case…

If I get it right, this would be the first time people try to implant sensing magnets with a titanium coating - or has anyone tried that out yet? If not - I’m a total noob on physics, so could someone with more knowledge in that field answer something like…

  • what size will they approx. have? Guess the coating will be similar to the silicone one, or even thinner?
  • how will the titanium coating impact the magnet’s strength? Whole point of all that here is to make a more reliable and better coating, compared to the silicone one, so will the magnet be stronger than a “traditional” (Haworth) one? Will the sensing or even lifting be better?

I love to try that out nevertheless, but it’s just something I’m wondering about, and since I sometimes feel like an… amateur amongst scientists on this forum, I guess you’ll all have the answers already :smiley:

Think you already reached that goal multiple times :wink:

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The M31’s were coated in a thin layer of ceramic Titanium Nitride. That’s the gold colored coating on the magnet. It’s the same stuff they use to make drill bits last longer. It’s not the same as titanum, which is a metal. Easy way to think of this is that Sodium is a a white metal that spontaneously ignites (explosively so) in water and just burns in air from humidity, while sodium chloride is table salt. Totally different properties.

They haven’t been designed yet. Figure smallish though. The M31’s are 3mm diameter by 1mm thick.

The titanium shell should have no detectable effect on the magnet, other than keeping it from being dissolved by body chemistry.

Don’t we all. You’re in good company though.


Making implants biocompatible is more or less a solved problem, and has been for a long time - just not at costs accessible to a low-volume biohacking company that relies on private sales rather than medical coverage reimbursements.

DT essentially have two “recipes” to make biocompatible implants: glass vials, and Amal’s magic goop and secret manufacturing process. The former is cost-effective because it rides on larger manufacturing capabilities set up for animal tags a long time ago. As for the latter, while very limited in scope compared to what’s available to researchers and medical device makers, my understanding is that it still cost Amal years of trial and error and beaucoup bucks to develop.

That’s it. Glass and magic Amal goop. That’s the two methods DT can work with as a small specialized implant manufacturer to make safe biocompatible implants with a reasonably democratic pricetag. The xGO is an attempt at making implantable magnets using the former, and the 6mm “flexmag” is an attempt at doing the same using the latter. Anything outside of that will require money that someone - Amal or the community - will have to pony up.

Me, I have a suggestion: instead of crowfunding a particular device, why not set up a separate, general “transhumanist research trust” as a non-profit?

Those who wish to contribute money to the fund would get perks, such as early access to new batches of whatever Amal dreams up and manages to have manufacturered once he has enough dosh to make it happen. The more you give, the higher you are on the priority list. Also, it would be tax-exempt, and the trust could receive other kinds of donations, like inheritance estates.

Of course, money levied by the trust would be used to sell devices… not for profit obviously. So DT wouldn’t make any money off of anything made using those funds. In fact, DT wouldn’t be selling those devices at all: they’d be made and sold at cost for the sole purpose of testing by the volunteers who contributed to the fund, and the trust would then “donate” their rolodex and manufacturing process to DT for later for-profit sales - because the trust isn’t in the business of selling implants, just doing research.

That way, it might unlock manufacturing for DT, once whichever factory was contracted to make the first not-for-profit devices had tooled up enough to make further orders less costly.

Just a thought…


I like that thought @anon3825968… perhaps something to check into 2021… after things hopefully get back to at least a littler closer to normal. Setting up non-profits and trust funds is definitely not my idea of a good time hahah but it does sound like an interesting idea.


Yeah well, notice that I didn’t say “Amal should set up a non-profit”. You don’t have to do it all by yourself: if you want to go down that path one day, ask around if someone versed in law would like to help out - and possibly become one of trustees. That’s what a community is for.


Crowd funding stuff sounds nice in general.
An EO gas sterilizer thing comes in my mind, I’d happily donate for that.

Btw I’m 101% hyped for the magnets :exploding_head: