One more "Which implant should I get and other dumb questions"

Hello All,

I hope this is the right place to post (my first post here).
Ive been thinking about an implant for a few years and circling this place for a while …
Recently returned to the idea and decided to do some experiments, so i got a PM3 and went to town; I am still really new to RFID, but i have a good understanding of physics and circuits. My next project is to make a RFID start for my motorcycle (will post in the project section when i have something concrete to post).

So now im getting motivated to get an implant even more; only looking at injectable at this time. So i have a few questions …
The first obvious is “Which one should i get and where?”
I definitely need an LF so why not the NExT? Any drawback of the NExT compare to a regular xEM?
I have no experience with Ntag216 … what are the main uses and limitations?
Also i travel a lot and most hotel in north America have Mifare Classic 1K, so the xM1 is also on the short list.
I am only wanting to go position 0 for now, Am i correct to think they cannot go in the same hand?
This bring me to the next question: Would it be feasible to get 2 implant in 0 (xM1 & xEM)?
Thinking NExT in L0 and xM1 in R0?

Now onto the “dumb questions”:
I read a few people shooting real steel with implant and no problem, so im not too worried about sports and things … But has anyone scuba with an implant? If they are 100% filled with resin, there shouldn’t be a problem with pressure changes.
Also, i work on high voltage (~20KV) and high frequency (~20KHz) systems.
The glass casing should prevent any issue in term of direct electrocution (Death is more likely …) but what about the life of the chip being co close to those circuits?
I have seen cell phones die because they were left on top of transformers/welders, are implant susceptible to the same emf damages?

I have a few other “dumb programing questions”, but lets keep those separate from the hardware questions :slight_smile:
Thank you in advance for your help,
X

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Welcome to the forums!

Be sure to use the search function here. I know a few people have already done very similar projects, and you can probably learn a lot from them.

I would definitely get the NExT over the xEM. AFAIK there aren’t any real drawbacks, and you get the benefit of having an HF implant as well. NTAG216 is basically your standard NFC tag. You can scan it with your phone, put links on it, store contact data, etc. You can also use it with the KBR1 to log into your computer using your implant.

You can also pair it with tasker on Android to do pretty much whatever. I have one of my implants act as a KBR1 when scanned by my phone, another will connect me automatically to my college WiFi, and one will automatically pair my bluetooth devices when scanned. Obviously there are a ton of more advanced things you can do with tasker and NFC, those are just some examples.

On iOS I believe you can use their shortcuts or whatever it’s called to achieve similar, although significantly more limited, results. I don’t have an Apple device though, so I can’t say much about it.

Yep. This is going to be the one you want for that. I use my xM1 whenever I’m at a hotel that uses Mifare Classic 1k cards, and it’s pretty awesome. Just remember that not all hotels have powerful enough readers for the glass implants, so a flexM1 might be something you want to consider.

They can’t go in the same position because they’re both High Frequency. You can however put one in P0 and another in P1 in the same hand for example.

Totally! I have a NExT in R0 and an xM1 in L0. You can definitely do both.

Those are actually the ones I’m not as comfortable answering :sweat_smile:. I know there are a bunch of members here that are more than capable of answering that stuff though!

Ask away!

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There are no dumb questions.

My advice: consider what you want to do first, then pick the implant(s) you need to achieve it. Unfortunately, RFID (LF or HF) is a jungle of standards and protocols. If you have several use cases, chances are you’ll need several implants. That’s just how it is.

But my point is: don’t implant first then wonder what the fuck you can do with it, like many newcomers do. Research what technology you need first, then implant it.

But I think that’s the tack you’ve adopted already.

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Thanks for the quick replies, I dont want to “dam, if only id gotten this one instead …”
the question regarding the Ntag216 is because it is coupled with the T5577 … might be a fun extra to play with …
Didn’t realized the KBR1 was Ntag216 … ill have to pick one up …

Thanks for the info on the xM1 readability, im not ready for the flex yet (im a bit shy about the implantation process, pain and scar).

Oh believe me, it’s definitely fun. It’s always enjoyable to see people’s reactions to being able to scan your hand with their phones lol.

It’s not just Ntag216. It will work with any HF (High Frequency) tag as far as I know. If you get the xM1, you’ll be able to scan that as well, although I wouldn’t recommend using the xM1 for password auth with the KBR1 since you’ll be changing the implants ID every time you clone a hotel card to it.

Awesome, good to know.

I was driving to a customer site and got an idea about the 20KHz … I’m gonna tape a T5577 and a magic 1K inside our machine and see what happens … Not sure why I didn’t though of this sooner …

If anyone got experience working on high voltage (and/or high frequency) equipment with an implant I would love to know.

Your question answered a question I’ve had recently. I’m looking at traveling and thus staying in hotels again… So I guess a FlexM1 is in my future. :slight_smile:

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I do about 30-50 hotel stay a year, and all but 1 or 2 use Mifare Classic 1K … The rest is usually older/rundown places that used magstripe or physical keys …

An excellent idea. You can also get Ntag216 stickers relatively cheaply that you can use to test.

If you search the forum you will find some discussion about induction cookers which might be relevant.

The KBR1 is NFC/HF while the T5577 is LF.

I would reiterate the point that @rosco made, a lot of people say “I got X implanted, now what can I do with it?” Much better to say “I want to do X which implant should I get”

The glassies have worse coupling than the flex chips, so if you are concerned about it you might want to consider a flex. I still have no implants myself, I use a dual frequency RFID ring, which acts as my front door key. I am looking at an Apex Mega as my first implant as the password management/2FA options are ones I actually have a use case for, and that should have the best range/coupling.

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Correct

I have done 50m in a Chamber and 30m wet
no problem at all.

I actually have a photo of my dive watch at depth, but you can’t see my implant, sooooo…its just a photo of a watch :watch:
:diving_mask: :slightly_smiling_face:

Correct, That’s 2 for 2

Pretty much for our implants, As long as it is ISO14443A like the xM1 and NTAG216
but with a couple of exceptions
it doesn’t work with ISO15693 Like the original Spark and xSLX

Don’t forget to pack your Proxmark, or get the FlexM1 gen2 and you can use MCT on your phone instead.

Thanks for this piece of info, the one hotel I’ve stayed in since I got my xm1 (fuck covid) was a desfire system, so I was starting to worry mifare classic wasn’t as common as I believed

The Ntag216 are on their way …
Any way to get glassies that are not ready for injection? This would do a little better of a test …
Ill make sure to share my results here.

Thant’s great news, thanks

You can get some chinesium not safe for injection versions on ali express and the like

I have a pile for shoving into 3D prints whenever I get around to it

Just for emphasis

It’s also worth pointing out the crappy China ones may not be fully sealed, so they would not be appropriate to test submersion

that’s a great idea :+1:
And thanks for the info, this would be to test the impact of of the 20KHz on them, I would never implant anything not made and prepped for it …

I cloned a M4xxx to a T5577 and a Mifare 1K and put them inside my machine (I got one at home). It’s on a timer and run 2.5h/day.

There is a few spots with different emf field inside my machine. I can make a dedicated (clean) post for the testing if people are interested.

So, I managed to clone to the T5577 without scanning the original M4xxx before hand, so I can load the UID before going to a specific location and be ready when I get there. One “dumb programing question” answered :sweat_smile:

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I would like to see what @Satur9’s thoughts are on this personally.

In short, will working with high voltages (>=20KV) and/or surrounded by high frequencies (>20KHz) day in and day out affect the overall performance/health of a glass implant (like a NExT for example)?

I dont have any EE knowledge but I dont see why these factors would have an indirect affect to a glass encapsulated, passive, subdermally implanted RFID tag.

It shouldn’t matter, and if a sticker, key fob, or card survives in that environment, then an implant most certainly will. The antenna coil size reduces the range significantly.
These things are powered through magnetic coupling and the strength of those fields depends on the current, not the voltage. Also, I wouldn’t worry too much about frequencies that are different from 125kHz or 13.56mHz. From what I understand, there’s some form of capacitor on the chips that forms a tank circuit with the coil and is tuned at the specific frequency of that particular chip, and this should attenuate other frequencies.

But TBH, I would’t worry about it after seeing the EMP tests that have been done on these things…

And 20kHz is not a high frequency… :wink:

That’s what I’m hoping is the case, if room permit it’s what would make sense from a design perspective.
I started testing on some cards I cloned (I’ll add the Ntag216 once I receive it), will see if it has any impact …

PS: I know 20KHz isn’t much in term of radio vom. but in industrial setting it’s considered high frequency. Our panels commonly have 480vac 3 phase, 300vdc and [email protected] (granted were left with about 0.1A in the corona discharge in the the 20KV capacitor).

This. enginerd is right. The implant circuits:

  1. have very poor coupling with everything in the environment because of the shapes and sizes of the coils
  2. only interact with the magnetic component of the “near-field” (not electrical fields)
  3. are very precisely tuned

A difference of 100kHz from the target frequency can reduce the amount of power the LC tank circuit in the implants recieve from the field by half or more. Maybe if you placed a T5577 chip right up against a wire carrying more than 30A at 100-150kHz you might be able to fry it. You can certainly fry the LF xLEDs with less. You would have to work very hard at frying a HF implant though. Even the HF xLED. Even an NFCKill has to be right next to it.

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