Starting out: Accessories needed & Installation

Support
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Hello everyone!
First off, thank you very much for having an awesome tone and friendliness in this forum! It’s something to be proud of :smiley:

Last week I got hooked when I saw the Modern Rogue’s video about RFID implants. So I started researching…
I have scoured the internet for information, but as all Newbies, I still have questions. Thing is, I haven’t really found exact answers for my questions. Feel free to link a post if questions have already been answered.

a) My use cases

  • Badge access control / time punching at work
  • Windows computer login
  • Hotel room access card cloning on vacations
  • Paying in stores - Yes, I am aware this is a future thing, possibly added to the Apex that is not released as of yet

b) Implants

  • NExT, because the xEM will most likely work for access control / time punching at work and computer login (through PIN). Don’t care so much for the xNT right now, but combining it in the NExT would be the sensible choice :slight_smile:
  • xM1 for hotel access cards if the NExT doesn’t work
  • Apex for payments when it is actually possible

Question: Does my choice for implants sound right?

c) Accessories
Okay, to me this is the big one…what do I actually need to make all this work? So far I gathered the following for my shopping basket:

Question: Is there a dedicated cloner for the xM1, in a similar form factor to the Blue Cloner? Do I really need the Proxmark for basic cloning stuff? No configuring my own IDs or other fancy stuff.

d) Usability
Writing / cloning to the NExT seems straightforward to me, but what about the xM1? Do I really have no other choice than the Proxmark? I actually would not want to lug around a laptop and the Proxmark on vacation, just to clone my hotel card :smiley:

e) Installation location

  • NExT in recommended position between thumb and index finger of my left hand
  • Apex (when it’s ready) in recommended position between thumb and index finger of my right hand
  • xM1…? To me the blade of my left hand seems a good place, but I’m not sure. Because this is not a recommended location and I’d do my first implants. I read about Jenny(?) with over 20 implants, but I am just starting out :smiley:

Questions
Should I just wait with the xM1? If I’d put it in the same place as the NExT (at least 5mm, yes) wouldn’t there be false readings all the time because it would read the wrong tag?
Also, if I were to put the NExT and the xM1 in the same location, could this be done in one sitting or does the first implant need to heal before the next implant can be put in?

Thank you for reading through this essay and thank you in advance for some insights :smiley:
Anti

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Flex chips are meant to be inserted into the back of the wrist, this would include the Apex

Also others will probably mention something similar but I really wouldn’t bother with the Blue Cloner

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Welcome to the forums!

You may have seen the thread here on the Modern Rogue video - in short, most of us loved it - glad you did too!

I’m not the best person to answer all of these questions, but I’ll jump in with a few thoughts…

Sweet! Sounds like your research has led you to a good list of uses that should all be achievable, and of course you are aware that Apex and payments are close but not there yet.

The KBR1 uses HF (the xNT side of your NExT, not the xEM side) so for Windows login using this, you’ll definitely want the NExT over the xEM

While most ‘legacy’ installs use LF for their work badges, its worth noting that not all do - for mine its a xM1 I need. @Pilgrimsmaster has some good advise in other posts about first steps to figure out what technology its using, but sounds like you want a NExT anyway, so can’t hurt to get it and try.

There are basically no good cloners, all have downsides, some set passwords and I don’t know of one for the xM1 - the Proxmark is the way to go, with one downside, its not user friendly to learn. Once you learn it, you can do a lot and basically work with any type of card - it’s definitely the way to go. RDV4 with ProxLF antenna is the gold standard, but a lot of us also have PM3 Easy clones out of China on sites like AliExpress - they aren’t as good, but they are good enough for most people. Yep, this means lugging around a computer anytime you want to change things other than the NDEF data on your NExT.

Probably, yeah you’d have trouble. With the NExT and xM1 both being HF tags, they’d crosstalk and make it hard to reliably read either in some cases, better to put them in different hands, or different spots in the same hand.

Hope this helps,
Compgeek

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Hi @CanuckCold
Thank you, I was not aware the Apex would be in a Flex format. This would mean I do not have to reserve prime space in my right hand.

I feared as much with the Blue Cloner. Viable alternatives between a Blue Cloner and a Proxmark are practically non-existent right?

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Time for a long follow up, I’m notorious for short answers :p.

All usable with the NeXT implant

This is dependent on the system they are using 90% probability that they are using MiFare ultralight/4k or 1k. That being said the flexM1 is gonna be “VERSATILE”

All your answers to yourself are on point! F**k yeah! Good research on your side.
Now as far as writing to LF tags/implants your best bet is to shell out on a Proxmark 3 easy. It’s a couple bucks more then a blue cloner but WAY MORE FUNCTIONAL!

Yes the proxmark 3 rdv4 is my holy Grail, but it’s is pricey. Learn on a Proxmark easy. You’ll find the sweet spots you will learn the command line for interacting with the proxmark and you’ll be way happier.

Pack light :slight_smile: OTG cable from pixel to proxmark :slight_smile: works wonders in the pocket.

Don’t try and deal with it choose different locations, to many false/positive reads and fighting with which chip needs to be scanned. The xM1 that you want is the “Flex” version it is not listed currently on the DT store. You would need to get ahold of @amal or @mdanger or @fraggersparks for that.

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Proxmark3 Easy knock off is a cheaper entry point to learn things but is less consistent and a bit more fiddly than than the RDV4 and is not compatible with the ProxLF antenna

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The Apex will be offered in a glass forum, flex forum and ring size 7-14us. @CanuckCold @Anti

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ooooh huh, I didnt know that. Do you know if the glass version will have a comparable antenna or will the flex version still be superior in that regard?

Also good call on the OTG cable, how hard is it to get up and running with a android phone?

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You could compare the tuned frequency and it’d be the same :stuck_out_tongue:

From what little info has leaked out, it’d be much the same as any of the flex vs x series implants - the flex has superior range, but for most normal access control situations the x series will be fine. I think someone mentioned here though that the x series likely won’t work on things like the Tesla Model 3 just due to the small size and funny antennas on the car - I’m not in the Vivokey forum so I can’t confirm or see any more details

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Not bad I can send you some guides, depends on the phone and what not. Root is not necessarily required.

SAME CHIPSET, antenna design is were it’s at. You hit it on the nail. The glass capsule I could load the Tesla Java Applet on it to open my car and start it but the Tesla reader might not pick up the antenna. Were as the flex I can deploy the Applet and have no issues with reads.

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I would love some guides on that, I’m usually on Samsung phones but as this one is slowly coming to the end of its life I would be willing to switch.

Ps. sorry for the derailment @Anti

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Wow, you guys are just crazy with your helpfulness! Thank you so much :smiley:

I am already overwhelmed with responding to all the perfect information, so I’ll choose some bits here and there.

Oops…should have read the product page again :wink: But since the NExT is a given anyway, this would work out.

Thank you! I find it rude to not do any basic research and just throw questions in a forum.

While I could get an early Christmas present to myself, I am glad I don’t have to shell out all that money.

You just eliminated a HUUUUGE negative point of mine! This would totally work for me! :grin:

I probably have missed something here…I believe you, but why would I need the Flex instead of the capsule xM1? Is it about the 1k / 4k thing? Can you point me to a thread?

Haha don’t worry :slight_smile: I’m glad this Newbie-thread of mine attracted so much quality information!

Alright. For me this means the NExT implant is the way to go at first. While I don’t think I am squeamish, I somehow don’t like the idea of cutting me up for a Flex format implant^^ Better get hooked with a NExT at first and the desire for the xM1 Flex will come surely.

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The flex installs arnt as bad as you think, you are still making a puncture with a needle like you would for the X Series it just has to be manually inserted afterwards due to the form factor not fitting in a needle.

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The short answer is read performance, hotel locks can be weird and fussy (I’ve been in hotels where it was bad enough getting the card they gave me to read, let alone an implant!)

That said, for my work badge I’m going xM1 even though @amal had a flexM1 sitting on his shelf that he was happy to sell me - for my use, the readers are nice and powerful, so the range of xM1 will be enough and the easier installation and healing made that the way to go for me. It’s also available in bundles, so makes the decision easy!

I figured if the range isnt enough for me, I can always get the flex later on and just have one more piece of glass in my hand for future use, but I don’t expect a problem since my full size card reads from about 3-4cm off the reader already

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I definitely have to research this some more, thank you!

Makes sense to me.

I think I’ll still stick to the NExT (plus accessories) for now and see where the voyage takes me :slight_smile:

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WOW!
I stepped out for about one hour and I came back to this new Thread.
Everbody just fucken smashed it out of the park.
Home run
@Anti like the others mentioned, Well done on your research!
Honestly
Wolf
It makes answering your many questions ( Not a bad thing) much less time consuming.

I think all your questions were answered, and some really great advice in there.

FYI with an ACR122U and some software you can also write to the xM1.
At the bottom of the xM1 product page is a video and some links.

FYI the xM1 will have 2 Flex versions out shortly ( No dates, DT are waiting on parts )

Biggest thing of note is the FlexM1 gen 2 will be able to be written to via an Android app

HERE is Amals blurb explaining the differences.

Placement wise.
Correct DO NOT place xM1 or FlexM1 near the NExT
always keep seperation of the same Frequencies

You will likely get in your product order, some of the essential accessories you mentioned
KBR1, Diagnostic Card, xField Detector(s), You will find these invaluable.
You will also get an xAC, which is a great product for project and your NExT - xEM

Heres my suggestion to you:- ( a bit of an $$ investment, but you don’t have to get it all at once
NExT ( accessories included in purchase )

Decide on what you want where, make sure you think ahead, future proof your self. Make a wish list of current and future devices ( Draw on your hands if you want( photoshop or physical ) and upload it, we can all give you some advice if anything looks out of place)
You will need to think about xSeries vs Flex, and find locations that suit and the biggest consideration, is make the ones you use the most, the most accessible.

When you are ready to write anything other than NDEF to your NExT - XNT with your phone,
Then grab a Proxmark Easy ( could go RDV4, but probably overkill at this stage )

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Unfortunately, I won’t be much help with unreleased products - I’m near exclusively code side, and I live 18 hours by plane away from Amal.

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You can install a flex pretty much wherever you want. I have one installed in that spot, but it’s a tricky install with all the blood vessels nearby and it kind of gets irritated when my wrist is in certain positions.

The blade of the hand and other parts of the forearm are also good picks.

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Thank you very much for all the help here!

Have I understood correctly that the FlexM1 Gen2 can only be written to once? Because Sector 0 (where the UID is) can be written to, but then is locked forever and not even a Proxmark can change that?
Seems counterproductive to implant such a device :wink:

For my next steps, I will order a NExT, a Proxmark Easy and all the cool little accessories to make life easier. Down the line probably a FlexM1 too :slight_smile:

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I believe you’re referring to a FUID gen.2 card? This is an anti-bricking countermeasure (after the advent of gen.1 changeable uid cards, certain systems started testing for them and trying to irreversibly damage them). From my understanding, when the FlexM1 is released there will be gen.1 (so answers to magic backdoor) and gen.2 (no answer to backdoor but allows a standard write command to the UUID sector). Gen.2 breaks down into CUID (standard write) and FUID (basically an unfused genuine Mifare, you get one write to it and its fused after).

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