The anti🚫-derailment🚃 & thread🧵 hijacking🔫 thread🧵 ⁉

[Coma]

@Satur9

I hope you don’t mix up the reasoned debate we have on here with the mob-rule craziness on twitter.

Not at all - and that’s one of the reasons I stay faaar away from twitter, facebook and similar… Might be a bad thing for my blood pressure

@Satur9

but if what they want to do is harmful to another person then we can’t let them persist unopposed

Totally agree - yet, I think people have to stand other people saying their opinion, even if they strongly disagree. Of course, they can say something against that again, and then it might lead to a (civilized) discussion - like it did here. It all depends on the words both sides use, as simple as it sounds…

I just think it’s getting problematic if opinions are forged into laws - like in Germany, we have some sort of quota for women in higher management positions, and that’s not always a good thing. Yes, there is this glass ceiling, and it is very hard for women to actually get to leading positions. But now, no matter how good you are, even if you reach your position totally by yourself, people will say “ah, she’s there because of the quota”. So, no respect for what you achieved… that might just not be the right way.
Same with the language-stuff - I get that it might be important for some people, but changing a language will always rise up strong opposition, and most people who are not concerned simply don’t even get what it’s all about. And at the same time, there are a lot of things that would be very important to address (like pay-gap and such), all while people are fighting about if it should be called “Student”, “Student*in”, “Student/in”, “StudentIn” or “Studierende” (sorry, had to take German words - in English, this would be less of a problem, I think^^). This just feels a bit absurd

[Satur9]

@Coma

This just feels a bit absurd

Yup, I definitely feel the craziness. That’s what I mean about getting the two mixed up though. There’s society fumbling about stupidly for solutions to these systemic issues, which can definitely be upsetting and nonsensical and a reason to get upset. Then there’s interpersonal communication within small groups of people.

Wouldn’t you agree that day-to-day interactions that open up people’s eyes to their unconscious biases is better than these heavy handed approaches by legislators and interest groups on twitter/facebook? Maybe even more effective? It’s going to be slow going, but I think most people want a cultural shift toward inclusion, and changing the way you talk in personal conversations seems like the least invasive way to go about that. No one here is trying to force their views on anyone else, we’re all just trying to get more light on things so we can observe them more clearly.

[Coma]

@Satur9

Wouldn’t you agree that day-to-day interactions that open up people’s eyes to their unconscious biases is better

Yep. Totally.
Problem is, some people are quite aggressive on that, on both sides. And it is not possible to force someone’s eyes open - you can explain things, and that’s a great thing, but like I said - jumping in somewhere and just stating “hey you! That was sexist” might just work less than maybe starting with “hm, why do you use that special wording?”. I mean, being harsh to people while complaining that they are being harsh is… you get my point

I actually met someone on a forum who is gender-fluid, so sometimes feels like a boy and sometimes like a girl. S/he explained to me that there are special bracelets so people on the outside could easily see what gender s/he felt like on that day. To be honest, I still can’t completely relate to gender-fluidity, but I liked that idea - I like things that make it easier for me not to insult people or step on their toes, as long as it is not restricting myself.
What I don’t like is people shouting at me because I did something wrong without even knowing - and I think most people feel like that^^ And sadly, that’s exactly what happens in less civilized areas like here…

[Satur9]

That’s fair. I feel like that’s just people being unreasonable and overreacting. That could happen in any setting, and the person who was yelled at totally has a license to push back on that to distinguish themselves as “not one of those people”. We put people in boxes to make it easier on our lazy minds, but really every situation and person is different and there’s a lot of nuance and grey area.

All that potential for meaningful communication and delineation is thrown out the window if the person who was yelled at just throws up their hands and says “it’s this damn PC culture, I can’t deal with it” and leaves the convo. In that case everyone is at fault.

I don’t think it’s fair to say “because of the potential to inhibit people’s speech, don’t bring up when someone says something that upset you” though. That’s just taking it to the other extreme. There can be a coexistence.

[Coma]

@Satur9

We put people in boxes to make it easier on our lazy minds

We all do, and that’s not even such a problem, as long as people are willing to communicate and learn.
But yes, it really depends on both sides - if both are willing to talk, things can end up well

@Satur9

I don’t think it’s fair to say “because of the potential to inhibit people’s speech, don’t bring up when someone says something that upset you” though.

Nah, that’s not what I meant… If something annoys you, speak up against it! That’s totally fine, and may even open up some potential for better understanding. I think it just depends on how you speak up. Like in every conversation, remaining calm and respectful helps a lot

Okay, so we now had gun rights, religion, toxic masculinity - any other topic at hand that usually can’t be discussed online? It’s just amazing, this comm

[anon3825968]

@Satur9

I strongly agree that people should be able to do whatever they want, but if what they want to do is harmful to another person then we can’t let them persist unopposed

And here we come to the core of the problem: for the thin-skinned types with zero sense of humour and a pathological need to respect everybody and everything, EVERYTHING is harmful.

Since they “can’t let them persist unopposed”, they end up drowning everybody who doesn’t conform to their bland view of the world in an unending stream of political correctness barf.

That’s why I’m saying it’s worse than real, in-your-face intolerance: SJWs and groupthinkers invariably end up being more oppressive than straight haters under a thin guise of tolerance and openmindedness. Worse, they don’t even realize it because they’re so convinced it’s their God-given duty to reeducate the crass people who don’t think right.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and the PC crowd sure is busy laying down the pavement.

[Satur9]

Lol

[Satur9]

I appreciate your attempts to drown out the nuance and silence dissent with your generalization and vitriol. It’s really healthy for you and everyone around you. Keep up the good work, m8

[anon3825968]

It is quite healthy actually

Also… my attempts to silence dissent? I’ll just repost this then shall I.

@Satur9

we can’t let them persist unopposed

[Satur9]

Yes, great job taking this quote

@Satur9

if what they want to do is harmful to another person then we can’t let them persist unopposed

out of context. Fuck those people who are being harmed.

@anon3825968

thin-skinned types with zero sense of humour and a pathological need to respect everybody and everything, EVERYTHING is harmful

@anon3825968

they end up drowning everybody who doesn’t conform to their bland view of the world in an unending stream of political correctness barf

@anon3825968

SJWs and groupthinkers invariably end up being more oppressive than straight haters under a thin guise of tolerance and openmindedness

@anon3825968

they don’t even realize it because they’re so convinced it’s their God-given duty to reeducate the crass people who don’t think right.

Is this what you think of me? I thought we had a bit more in common, and you wouldn’t need to two-dimensionalize me like that. You’re much more experienced than I am, so I shouldn’t have to be the one acting like an adult here. Figure out how to have a civil discussion when something is bothering you rather than lashing out at fictional offenders.

I’m open to discussion. I will not tire.

[anon3825968]

Okay, here’s the full quote in context again:

@Satur9

I strongly agree that people should be able to do whatever they want, but if what they want to do is harmful to another person then we can’t let them persist unopposed

You’re an intelligent dude: do you not see how utterly odious what you wrote is? “People should be free but as soon as someone objects, they should not be free anymore”.

Define harmful: if I go out into the street intent to stab someone, of course I should be stopped. If I want to organize a rave party in a thin-walled appartment complex, I should be stopped. If I call for someone to kill my neighbor, I should be stopped. Clearly.

The problem with certain kinds of people is, if you start saying something about gender - factual or not, use certain words or crack a lewd joke, they start pretending they’ve been hurt as much as if they had been stabbed. And by that logic, I should be stopped also.

Well sorry but speech should not be restricted, be it lewd speech or hate speech, left wing, right wing, sexist, feminist, masculist, whatever. Unless of couse it’s a direct call to murder someone or cause social unrest, but that’s clearly defined and punishable by law.

@Satur9

Is this what you think of me?

I think you grew up in a society that doesn’t tolerate anything anymore and it’s part of your mental conditioning. I grew up in a society where it was forbidden to forbid, and it’s deeply ingrained in mine. In that respect, we don’t have much in common. I like straight talk, irony and vitriol - as you correctly identified it - and you like barraging people with PC and patronizing belittling sentences, the latest of which is

@Satur9

You’re much more experienced than I am, so I shouldn’t have to be the one acting like an adult here.

See, I would never dare say that to you.

@Satur9

I’m open to discussion. I will not tire.

I will. It’s tiring to fight PC.

[NMCCW]

- YouTube

[Satur9]

@anon3825968

You’re an intelligent dude: do you not see how utterly odious what you wrote is? “People should be free but as soon as someone objects, they should not be free anymore”.

You know that’s not what I said. You’re acting like a lawyer and what I’m saying is the letter of the law, which if not written carefully will be abused by the worst offenders. I’m not saying “if you say something that is arbitrarily defined to be harmful, I will object”. I literally said “if what they want to do is harmful”. If someone is feigning offense for their own stupid agenda, I’m just as likely to call them out. I’m not following some PC edict on propriety, and the obvious victim is not always the actual one.

@anon3825968

Well sorry but speech should not be restricted

I’m not restricting your or anyone else’s speech. I’m just willing to point out if it’s offensive. If that restricts you, that’s on you. There are literal thought police out there in places like the PRC. They’re actually restricting speech, and they laugh at our knit-picking over the semantics of freedom.

@anon3825968

See, I would never dare say that to you.

No, you would never dare tell me to act like an adult. Instead you call me a thin-skinned type with zero sense of humour, a pathological need to respect everybody and everything, who drowns out everybody who does not conform to my bland view of the world in an unending stream of political correctness barf, as if it’s my God-given duty (as if I believe in gods ) to reeducate crass people who “don’t think right”

Much more civil.

[anon3825968]

@Satur9

No, you would never dare tell me to act like an adult. Instead you call me a thin-skinned type with zero sense of humour, a pathological need to respect everybody and everything, who drowns out everybody who does not conform to my bland view of the world in an unending stream of political correctness barf, as if it’s my God-given duty (as if I believe in gods ) to reeducate crass people who “don’t think right”

Touche

But I wasn’t referring to you in particular - although I was replying to your post.

[Satur9]

I’m probably not “right”, but then who is. I’m sorry if I pissed you off (more than once) when you were just trying to have a laugh. Call it for now and live to fight another day? I value your contributions and I’ll try not to be a dickhead.

[anon3825968]

I’m not trying to be nasty neither. It’s just how I write. I’ve been called out on it all my life. And it’s not getting any better as society devolves into formless uniform intolerant blandness - although I suspect your generation can’t see that happening.

Believe it or not, I’m actually a very tolerant person, but my style is more live and let live. As in, if you want to dress up as a Nazi and parade in front of my house, I don’t mind as long as you don’t step on my lawn kind of guy.

Man, women, trans, furry, gay, straight, black, white, Marxist-Leninist, anarchist, disabled, Venusian… everybody’s a-okay for me as long as they don’t piss me off. But when someone starts telling me what I should say, how I should say it, or muddy up out simple issues with mountains of new-age garbage and misplaced good intentions, it does tend to piss me off. That’s just how I am man…

Yeah yeah, let’s not be dickheads

[NoUsersLefft]

[vampire_blue]

@Satur9

You know that’s not what I said. You’re acting like a lawyer and what I’m saying is the letter of the law

Agreed, i think there was a slight jump from what you said to what rosco thought you meant. as you said he generalized harm,as you are talking about hurting others feelings. But thats not what you said, and i think that may have been what really set this off.

I agree rosco can generalize people abit sometimes, but i agree with him on the fact that generalizations do come from a seed of fact and patterns.

i dunno, i’m pretty liberal myself, but i hate sjws. I am all for shutting down hate speech, but i know what dark humor is and enjoy it without taking it as an attack on anyone.

I feel like the idea of PC is too tied to SJWs, political correctness isn’t even really a thing (like yea i know it’s a thing but really it’s not when you think about how little it matters if we gave it less meaning/attention) It is just a term the people decided to start using to define something that everyone is meant to agree upon, but dosnt that mean something like racism and homophobia would of technically been “Politically correct” in the days of old where those where the norm? The idea that we are all meant to agree on something dosnt come from a wise philosophy, it is something all sides should be agreeing is a bad idea, Sjws should be the enemy of both sides (in there different perspectives) but what happens is as soon as we start to realise that we turn on eachother once again and start calling names.

None of this means anything, and i know the discussion already has been resolved but wanted to type my feelings about it all somewhere.

[Satur9]

@vampire_blue

I am all for shutting down hate speech, but i know what dark humor is and enjoy it without taking it as an attack on anyone.

Most people should be able to appreciate a little dark humor

If you can’t then you may be some kind of emotionless monster like SJWs are made out to be.

Obviously “political correctness” and “social justice warrior” have some negative connotations in internet culture and society writ large. Ultimately though the connecting thread is caring about other people. Some people take that to the extreme, and care about their preferred groups at the expense of others, but that’s just wrong and those extreme SJWs are biased.

All people have an equal right to say and do what they want. Where the value call comes in is when two people want contradictory things. I’m confident humans can work it out on a case-by-case without issue, though. It’s just going to take more time and experience.

[ODaily]

Hey, @Pilgrimsmaster, are you

hungry yet?