The anti🚫-derailment🚃 & thread🧵 hijacking🔫 thread🧵 ⁉

[Intector]

@Pilgrimsmaster

after the fatal cut cuasing death “you” would simply cease to exist

That was a though experiment in which you’re not able to die no matter how much you cut, but hey I 100% agree with you on that point.

@Pilgrimsmaster

but “you” are still “you”…until “you” die.

Now this isn’t quit correct, because not only our physical body is replaced, the mind is changing constantly with every new experience. I’m not sure how old you are, but the 10 year old “Pilgimsmaster” is long gone. All of these memories that we have are nothing but electrical impulses that travel through the synapses of our brain. All of these axon-to-dendrite connections could have been hardwired last Thursday when it all begun.
To be honest, I don’t believe this either. I’m convinced it was Monday.

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@Intector

the mind is changing constantly with every new experience.

BUT, that is “YOU”
“You” can change, “you” can evolve, “you” are that collection of electrical impulses and “you” will still be “you” until “you” die

[Atilla]

@Intector

That was a though experiment

They actually did it! Leslie Ungerleider and Mortimer Mishkin studied brain ablation in chimpanzees.

@Atilla

The answer is surprising: You would be shocked- to say the least knowing what portions of the brain can be de-activated without killing the organism.
The body keeps functioning, the ‘self’ - the personality distorts heavily.

They were destroying parts of the brain of chimps, in other cases were removing parts.
The aim of the study was to map the brain, find areas responsible for memory and object recognition. Eventually they were looking for the ‘self’.

There was one unlucky monkey, who got a rather large portion of his brain mushed up, then he was put back to alive.
He literally went apes while he supposed to recover, so the experiment (and the chimp) got terminated.
I link secondary sources when I find them.

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@Atilla

Unless the universe has a large enough (10^googleplex meter?)

[Intector]

Well, I made a real experiment regarding personality myself. My Wife and I decided to have children for this experiment. Our children changed over the years into many different people. The worst change was when they became teenagers, but after that they actually became normal humans.

[Coma]

@Pilgrimsmaster

“you” will still be “you” until “you” die

Depends on what defines you.

I thought a bit about your axe … you called it “granddad’s axe”, so it’s defined by being owned by your granddad. So it doesn’t really change anything if you change out the handle or the blade, it is still owned by your granddad, so it’s still “granddad’s axe”. Now, take a different axe and call it (among your tons of axes, you have to keep some distinction, after all!) the “olivewood handle axe”, for it has a beautiful handle made of olivewood. It will always be the olivewood handle axe, no matter who owns it, not matter what it’s used for. Even if you change the blade, it’s still the olivewood handle axe. Now, if you change the handle to one made of oak, it kinda looses its identity.
So… what defines “you” actually makes quite a difference.

Take people with alzheimer’s disease - the body is still there. But the person itself is slowly going away, until nothing is left…
Even though “you” can change and evolve, there is a constant stream between those experiences - I am no longer the girl I was when I was ten, but the experiences I made in that age actually shaped the being I am today. For people with alzheimer’s and several other serious diseases, this constant stream is lost or interrupted.
Take someone who loses all his memories after an accident - suddenly, they have to define a new “you”, because nothing of the old “you” exists anymore. And sometimes, such persons are suddenly very different from how they were before.

Where this consciousness is actually located… dunno. Of course, a lot of it has to do with processes in the brain, but that’s not the only place for it.
There was an experiment with mice once, two populations - one was, as should be normal, very afraid of cats, the other had some modifications (don’t ask me which, I’m not too fond of animal testing…) that eliminated this fear. After some time, the scientists transfered the intestinal flora of the “fearless” mice to those “fearful” mice, and surprising enough, the mice lost their natural fear of cats.
The intestinal flora has some influence on mental problems like depression as well, and yet, nobody would say “my personality is in my guts”. Nope, it’s always the brain in western culture.
In Asia, this brain-dominance is much less - for example, in Chinese medicine, the lifeforce itself (qi) is contained and produced in the kidneys, so giving one kidney away would have a much more serious impact than it has in western medicine.
I think it’s pretty sad that in western culture, all parts of us (except for the brain) can be easily replaced, just like parts of a machine.

[Eriequiet]

Food for thought on the Alzheimer’s points you were making

Unless I’m mistaken, I believe current research and or understanding is that, the memories aren’t actually gone but rather blocked by plaques and gunk

So, now your “self” is still there in the brain but it’s being disconnected, but still exists

Which becomes as, do you exist if your self is not aware of your self?

[Coma]

@Eriequiet

Unless I’m mistaken, I believe current research and or understanding is that, the memories aren’t actually gone but rather blocked by plaques and gunk

I didn’t know that, but it is really interesting… so in a way, it could be reverted?

@Eriequiet

do you exist if your self is not aware of your self

This is a difficult question… even more so, because we can just view it from the outside, because people who are affected by it can’t tell. I know a boy who, thanks to the fault of a doctor, got too little oxygene during his birth… so, since his birth, he is heavily disabled. Can’t walk, can’t speak, and nobody knows if he really percieves his environment at all. And still, I can’t tell if he has a sense of “self” or not. I can make some educated guesses, but I can never really know.

I think this leads to an ethical question - as long as we don’t know if someone is self-aware (and this applies to animals as well!), we better assume he is.
Some decades ago, people were sure that dogs were not able to feel pain. If you kick a dog and it whines, it’s the same as if you push a button on a machine and something happens - no chance an animal would be able to feel something as “human-exclusive” as pain. We know better now.

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@Coma

you called it “granddad’s axe”, so it’s defined by being owned by your granddad. So it doesn’t really change anything if you change out the handle or the blade, it is still owned by your granddad, so it’s still “granddad’s axe”.

Absolutely, … until he dies, then it WAS his axe, what doesn’t exist, cannot own anything.

WE can label it and say “he” still owns it, but all that exists of “him” is literally our memories, but that IS STILL NOT “him”, and for a short while after he dies, a bunch of stuff including the axe and a sack of skin and bones or ash, that also USED TO belong to “him” will still exist, but will not be “his” because “he” is no more.

@Coma

suddenly, they have to define a new “you”, because nothing of the old “you” exists anymore. And sometimes, such persons are suddenly very different from how they were before.

The “you” may have changed from previous “you”, but they are now the current “you” just different from how they were before.

Obviously, Alzheimer’s is much more significant / permanent but the same example would go for somebody that is usually happy but gets angry.
“They” are still “them”, just an angry version of “them”.

It is like saying somebody is
“not themselves”
“unlike them”
“not his usual self”
etc.
All examples are the same person ie. the same “you” regardless of how they are acting.

Don’t get me wrong, I also understand what you are saying, and your statement

@Coma

Depends on what defines you.

is the best example.

Regardless of the philosophical or existential definition of “you”, will inevitably at some stage, be “you” no more.

Of course, this is all my view from a logical rather than emotional point of view.

I believe, when “you” die, it is

Apologies @coma if some of my comments upset you, I was conscious of your dad whilst I was writing, but upsetting you is not my intention.
Just sharing my view but as you are also an Athiest, I know your logical self understands where I am coming from

[Mariarangok]

That could be fairly fast to vectorize and with it in vectors you can scale and print whatever the hell you want.
Whoops for some reason that post loaded as the latest and only when I replied it became obvious it was from a million years ago.

[Coma]

@Pilgrimsmaster

Apologies @coma if some of my comments upset you

First of all - nah, everything’s fine! I just think about all that a bit more, since I am currently more affected by it. Most of the time, I don’t spend too much time thinking about death, like most people. But currently, I sometimes just stop and take a look at how I feel about some things, because there are, naturally, some conflicting feelings inside me and I want to keep a clear mind about all that. These discussions here actually help me a lot to be more aware of some things, and your granddad’s axe was just a perfect example on how I currently feel about our house - so, no need to apologize, I am grateful for that!

@Pilgrimsmaster

Regardless of the philosophical or existential definition of “you”, will inevitably at some stage, be “you” no more.

I totally agree on that point, maybe that wasn’t clear enough
Inevitably, we die at some point.
I said it’s somehow comforting to think about my atoms “living” on in other beings or the clouds or such, but of course, that will ne longer be “me” like it is now. It’s just that I am, though no longer a conscious being, still relevant in a way. Not as “me”, but just as some atoms who build new structures. Nothing is ever really lost, kinda (yeah well, except for the consciousness… but the components of life will still be there, and have always been). Of course, this might just be a comforting thing to calm my own, atheistic mind

@Pilgrimsmaster

“They” are still “them”, just an angry version of “them”

This got me thinking a lot… I think emotional states are always there and not necessarily changing who you are. Just like different light concepts in a room - the room is always the same, no matter if it is illuminated in blue or red or green or white. But if you change out all the lights except for the red one, so it’s not possible to see the room in any other colour, it will be the “red room”. Hard to explain what I mean, but… I think if your core personality is sometimes affected by strong emotions, you are still “you”. But if you core personality is massively changed, thats a new, a different “you” maybe. I had a friend who had a really massive depression “suddenly” (well, I know this doesn’t happen suddenly, but he didn’t have that before). It changed the way he was, and even afterwards, he was no longer the same as before. So the “you” had changed, even though the depression was managed - he was no longer depressive (at least he no longer wanted to kill himself), but the experiences he made changed his core personality.

I think I come to the point that maybe, we all have various selfs, one after the other, and they affect each other - like transparent pictures, one above the other. And things like alzheimer’s or memory loss or such kinda tear away some of those pictures…

@Pilgrimsmaster

Of course, this is all my view from a logical rather than emotional point of view

It’s amazing that you are able to keep such a logical view on such a (usually) very emotional topic - that really helps to view things from different angles! But may I ask… are you afraid of death? You write you’re an atheist as well, and you now everything will end with your death (not on a global scale of course, but for you as an individual) - how do you feel about that?

[Pilgrimsmaster]

Really great reply

@Coma

But may I ask… are you afraid of death?

No I am not afraid.
I am not yet ready to die, but if I did, oh well,
There’s nothing I can do…“I’ll” be dead.

I would be more concerned how my death would affect others ( without sounding arrogant, but I guess it would affect some people )

How I die is important to me, I would prefer to control it.
For example, if I got hit by a bus and an ambulance officer or member of the public tried to save me and I died at the scene, I wouldn’t want that to affect the bus driver or passengers or ambulance officer (although I’m sure they would be better at coping but on some level would still have an affect)
Also this would mean I wouldn’t have
a chance so say goodbye and get my affairs in order.
If my organs aren’t too mushed up, I would be happy to think that they could be used for someone else.
But after I’m dead, I won’t be thinking, happy, sad or anything else…

To answer @Backpackingvet

No, I don’t think those organs would be “mine” anymore, because “I” don’t exist, they would become whomever they are transplanted into as a part of their system keeping them alive.
(If I gave somebody an axe , that axe was mine, now its theirs.)
Depending on the organ, and the time it takes to renew, let’s call it the ~7 years, there would be nothing left of original that was me, so even from the philosophical view, that organ would no longer be “mine”. The axe head and the handle have both been swapped whilst inside somebody else.
There is no way it could still be mine

Now, although it would be shit, If I was diagnosed with terminal cancer, at least I would have time to square things away, and nobody would be to blame. I can show others I’m fine with it etc.
Again harvest as may organs as you need/want. “I” don’t need them

If I make it to an “Old” age and just become a drain on society and my family shitting my pants and dribbling on myself in an old peoples home/ retirement village.
I would prefer to be terminated, or if I have any viable organs left I’ll be a “living” organ donor.
I always joked than when/if I reach 80, ill be jumping out of a plane without a parachute…What a rush and a way to go out
( except for the person on cleanup duty, the pilot, friends and family etc)

The last election in NZ, euthanasia has been legalised, so I am super happy about that.
There are obviously many hoops to jump through, but it is now possible.

Funnily enough, when I was around 13 I did a school report about euthanasia and how it should be legalised.
I wish I still had it, to see how my 13year old “self” expressed my thoughts.

So No, I’m not afraid to die, it is inevitable for us all.
I am not ready now and would prefer to control the how and when.

If I could be immortal and live “forever” would I?
You betcha. So much still left to learn and do.

Clause

I would want to be able to choose my “age” and stay that age, through out my immortality.
No point being 500 years old an a vegetable.

[Intector]

@Pilgrimsmaster

If I could be immortal and live “forever” would I?
You betcha. So much still left to learn and do.

I’m not sure if you’ve totally thought that through? You would have to watch your loved ones die and would be damned to stay single without any close friends forever just to prevent that pain.

@Pilgrimsmaster

I would want to be able to choose my “age” and stay that age, through out my immortality.
No point being 500 years old an a vegetable.

You can’t choose your “age” because time keeps ticking even for immortals.
One way would be to legalize stem cell research, which opens the door to immortality and ensures everlasting youth. The only problem than would be to colonize other planets because this one would be running out of place for all those humans.

[anon7067117]

@Intector

immortality and ensures everlasting youth

At that point infertility would have to become pretty much a given.

[Intector]

@anon7067117

At that point infertility would have to become pretty much a given.

What makes you think that? You can make every organ with stem cells there’s no limits.

[anon7067117]

I am refering to (in)voluntary induced infertility. Since, you know, sooner or later, you will run out of space/resources for everyone.

[Coma]

@Pilgrimsmaster

Really great reply

Yours as well - thank you for going into such detail!

@Pilgrimsmaster

I would be more concerned how my death would affect others ( without sounding arrogant, but I guess it would affect some people )

That’s totally not arrogant - you are in contact with people, and those who like or love you will be sad when you die, it’s as simple as that.

I really like your views on being able to control your own death, and I think to a certain degree, this is a thing all people wish for - but I am quite impressed that you thought about the effect on “random people” like bus drivers or ambulance officers as well. I am always sad and angy when people who actually commit suicide ruin other people’s lifes by doing so… (like, driving on the wrong side of the autobahn, jumping in front of a train and such)

@Pilgrimsmaster

Now, although it would be shit, If I was diagnosed with terminal cancer, at least I would have time to square things away, and nobody would be to blame

True, but I would definitely want to be able to end that if I think it’s “enough” - simply because cancer usually leads to a very painful death, and I’m a bit afraid of that level of pain. Or rather, I wouldn’t want to endure it…
Same, of course, with the old-age-alternative - if you sorted your things out, are okay with leaving, you should have the opportunity to decide that you want to end your life. I really like the “jumping out of a plane”-idea (or doing some other stuff with maximum adrenaline output^^), but every other painless solution would be fine for me as well

@Pilgrimsmaster

I wish I still had it, to see how my 13year old “self” expressed my thoughts

I write little poems since I was 15 or 16, and it’s very interesting to re-read them - I can relate, still, but my opinions on some things have changed… and I’m less of a drama-queen now
So yeah, would indeed be interesting!

@Pilgrimsmaster

So No, I’m not afraid to die, it is inevitable for us all.
I am not ready now and would prefer to control the how and when.

If I could be immortal and live “forever” would I?
You betcha. So much still left to learn and do.

Totally agree with you here (though I am a bit afraid because of all the uncertainty).
Immortailty… yes, please, provided I can take some people with me, have eternal youth and an option to die if / when I want to

@Intector

damned to stay single without any close friends forever just to prevent that pain

Not necessarily. I grew up with dogs, they were close family for me, and every time I knew they will pass away before I do. To keep away from joy just to prevent pain is not a good idea, in my opinion

@anon7067117

I am refering to (in)voluntary induced infertility

Without drugs or heavy operations? Where can I sign up?

[anon7067117]

@Coma

Without drugs or heavy operations? Where can I sign up?

I mean, we are talking about a hypothetical future where the human lifespan has been expended indefinitely through use of stem cells. I’m sure they could cook something up that would induce infertility :^) and make it a prerequisite in exchange for living ‘forever’

[Coma]

@anon7067117

I’m sure they could cook something up that would induce infertility

They could be starting with that point, I’d happily support that

[anon7067117]

Still waiting for viable male contraception myself… RISUG seems to be stuck in development hell, and other things aren’t looking much better