If you don’t want to get killed in a drunk driving accident, just stay home and isolate! Dont put the burden on the drunk driver, that would be restricting their autonomy. Worlds not a safe place. Be responsible for yourself.
yea… you walk out side you take that risk
But they are actively trying to kill someone,
I disagree with the notion that Someone not getting vaccinated is attempted murder,
But end of the day I’m responsible for my personal safety, so I train in lethal / non lethal force and trauma first aid, and carry what ever tools I deem appropriate
I don’t demand that every store install metal detectors, and cops randomly frisk everyone that can
If you dont wanna get PTSD from seeing my schlong, be responsible for yourself and stay at home. Dont put the burden on me and limit my bodily autonomy by forcing me to wear pants in public. you walk outside, you take that risk.
People not getting vaccinated despite being perfectly able to, have absolutely caused countless unnecessary deaths.
I disagree with the first part - some drunk driver is, mostly at least, not going out in a mood to kill someone. Usually, it’s just thoughtlessness - (s)he has to drive home, had some drinks, “ah c’mon, nothing bad is gonna happen”. So, the risk (for the driving person as well as all others) is played down, maybe because the driver was already “lucky” some times. But finally, something bad happens and people die.
I think that’s pretty much exactly the situation with getting a vaccination or not. It’s thoughtlessness. You have to go there to get a jab, make an appointment, maybe feel sick for some days (or weeks, worst case), and - “nothing bad is gonna happen”. Others have survived Covid already, so it can’t be that bad…
I think it’s a very similar mindset.
To the “freedom” part…
All the lines to draw are blurry at least. Body autonomy? Yes, totally. You should be allowed to do to your body (or to get done to your body) whatever you like, no matter if it makes you sick, is painful, or you scare others afterwards (those guys who had their noses removed scare the hell outta me, but still, I’m fine with that). Offensive tattoos or whatever, all fine.
Though there are already some consequences that limit your freedom… I would lose my job if I would tattoo my face. It’s still my decision, but I have to think about the consequences. My bodmod artist has some pretty funny hentai tattoos on his legs, and he was told to leave a public sauna because of them. In Japan, he wouldn’t be able to visit most bath houses, and nor would I. I personally think that’s ridiculous, but I respect that.
I think body autonomy includes drugs as well - every adult should be able to get any trip they want, at least if they are aware of the consequences. They might kill themselves by doing so.
Would that still apply to a mother or father of 2 little children? Or do they give away parts of their freedom, because they know they have to care for someone? If so, how much freedom can or should you sacrifice for others? The freedom to not get vaccinated is similar, it’s a decision for one person, but it’s at the expense of others… it has an impact on other people, and so it’s important to take that into consideration as well, and not just shout “FREEEEDOM!”, flags waving, ignoring consequences.
Funny enough, it’s often people that emphasize freedom heavily in political debates that passed laws punishing abortion. Because the woman has no right to use her freedom when it affects another being…
(I obviously deeply disagree, but the connection is interesting, I think)
Okay, so, I do have a couple of issues with what @Eriequiet says. Let’s remove the emotion from this discussion because it’s clearly emotionally charged. Let’s just look at the logical arguments. Any society is founded on an agreed set of unspoken rules. There are unspoken rules, and certain expectations you could reasonably have. As to where that line is drawn depends on the society.
No, I don’t think so, because that would limit bodily autonomy, but things are not black and white. I can imagine potential situations where it would be reasonable to expect someone to cover up particular tattoos, or to limit their exposure to society. Another option could be for that person to move to a different society if they choose to not abide by the unspoken rules of society. If they choose not to accept the unwritten rules, those are usually the cases that end up getting written into law, so that there is no dodging and worming around it.
Now, Eriequiet said that they are trained in lethal/non-lethal force and trauma first aid and carry a lot of tools. I don’t know about other countries, but in Australia, I would say the expectation is that you should never ever need to defend yourself. We outlawed guns when we had a mass shooting in the '90s, and so there is an unspoken expectation that nobody carries guns apart from gang members (who really only ever shoot each other) or the police who just about never use them. There is no need because our society is safer for having outlawed firearms. America is different, and I would imagine I’d be feeling fearful quite often over there because anybody could be carrying a firearm. The potential for danger is much higher. That is an unspoken expectation there, but because
everybody most people in that society agree on that expectation it becomes accepted. I do not agree to that expectation, I do not sign up for that risk, and so I don’t think I’ll every travel to America.
If we look at road safety, the situation in say, Indonesia or Thailand is completely different. If someone on a moped or scooter crashes into you, you might get up, dust yourself off unless you have broken bones, and drive away. In America, most of Europe, Australia, or plenty of other countries, you’d probably get arrested and charged for trying to flee the scene of an accident. There’s paperwork involved, you’ve got to exchange car insurance information, make sure you know everyone’s driver’s licenses, file a form to the police, let them know if there were any injuries, they can clear debris off the road if there was any debris etc. Completely different unspoken rules, and yet both types of societies function, more or less. Vietname has some of the most fascinating footage clips on YouTube, with some older videos from India also being quite interesting. It looks like chaos, but the people there are used to it and to them it makes sense. I can’t imagine it would be anywhere near as safe, but they accept the risks every day.
If we look at the example of taking a vaccine, you might have an aversion to needles, perhaps a medical reaction to needles or vaccines or some other part of the process that makes it incredibly difficult. I’m sure if someone explained such a reason there’d be no issue. The unspoken rule in any country is that the vaccinated population gets vaccinated to help protect those who can’t be vaccinated.
“Because freedom” as far as I’ve found does not fit into the unspoken rule in any way. The rules of most societies are founded on science, hard evidence and testing and provable facts. That is also an unspoken rule. Some societies also base their unspoken rules upon religious texts. When someone chooses to ignore the science, from those who usually know what they are talking about - in the case of vaccinations that would be medical professionals - then they are flatly ignoring that unspoken rule. The typical assumption in such cases would historically have been that such a person was not of sound mind. In the era of the internet, we are finding it can be more indicative of powerful people with a lot of influence manipulating fearful or gullible people with misinformation, either by accident or for malicious reasons. Trump is now a classic example of that, using his power to manipulate and divide a nation with misinformation.
You are right that we should not be accusing people or scapegoating, or labelling people as stupid. I think I was getting affected by the general tone of the messages I was reading, and I acknowledge that I’m better than that and should do better. I generally believe that free will doesn’t exist. I genuinely think we are simply consequences of the laws of physics. In that mentality, I don’t think anybody can really be found to be at fault for their actions. But that doesn’t mean we are free from responsibility. If we are aware that we can influence our own thought patterns and change our behaviour, then we have the responsibility to always be better, to both improve ourselves and improve things for the people around us. Those who choose not to be better, who wish to cause harm to the people around them, I believe need help, not hate.
Sorry, but when you get hit by a moped, you don’t then go home and hit all of your family with mopeds, and go to work and hit your coworkers all with mopeds. You don’t then go grocery shopping and hit everyone at the store with mopeds. Your kids don’t go to school and hit all their classmates and teachers with mopeds. Those people don’t go home and hit their friends and family members with mopeds.
Anyone who doesn’t get vaccinated, who is able to, is most definitely selfish and stupid. Just like anyone who drives drunk, is selfish and stupid.
End of the day I never expected anybody to agree with my more radical stance…,. Which is whatever I’m totally fine with agreeing to disagree and am perfectly fine to do so and carry on like nothing
But I get wound up when people start letting the more negative side of of our species out…
We are just starting to maybe be on the right path to acceptance and empathy for one another and then covid takes us back down 10 pegs
I just wish people would chill the fuck out, take and deep breath and continue to chill the fuck out
Then examine stuff with an open mind,
(The loyalties and sides and echo chambers need to go)
And if you disagree you disagree, but it doesn’t need to make people less than
There was a lot of other stuff to unpack , and I don’t really talk firearms in this thread anymore, nor do I have the mental energy anymore
But this ended on a good note from that quote for me
Thing is, until now, I did not hear any arguments against a vaccination. None.
From your side, I get it, are arguments against a forced vaccination and against the general tone of discussion. I’m okay with both. (edit: with the arguments, not with the force!)
But still, you don’t deliver any arguments to the case itself, nor do you react on those arguments we state. About responsibility, society, consequences.
We had that firearms discussion before, and I think it was a great one, because there was an exchange of arguments and viewpoints - I miss both of that here.
Because I don’t have much argument against any of that, like you said my arguments are against force and people’s behavior.
I’m all for the vaccine, I’m equally against forcing people
If people aren’t buying what you’re selling, maybe it’s not the peoples fault… but the delivery
If the whole situation wasn’t such a clusterfuck, the psychology alone would fascinating,
Weirdly, I don’t actually blame the individuals that are laughing at unvaccinated people dying, things have clearly gotten so twisted that we are starting to see some unique psychology’s, self defense mechanisms and other effects present themselves
Yep, that discussion was pretty good and inspiring about the exchange between different walks of life,
Things took a turn in a later discussion,
Looks like the time for discussion about the freedom to infect others is over, even in the US:
This entire debate will soon be forcibly put to rest, and not a minute too soon, thank God.
That’s very interesting - it was totally the same for me, but over time, the scales tipped a bit more in one direction. I’m still against forcing people, but I am seriously shocked by the low vaccination rates by now.
If you’re still equally for the vaccine and against forcing people, this puts you in a strange dilemma, doesn’t it? Especially since you know and see the results of people being too lazy or scared or whatever to get vaccinated. Is it some sort of “inner strife” or such? Or do you think that the freedom (not to get vaccinated but still to “run around”, possibly infecting others) is the more important part and has to be preserved by all means, even if that might lead to more deaths?
It’s hard to transmit that by written language, but none of those questions is meant to be reproachful - I’m really curious, simply because I felt a similar dilemma.
Maybe I didn’t state that clear enough - people laughing at other people dying are absolute assholes. No matter why someone dies, and even if it was self-inflicted by stupidity or whatever, it is always a tragedy for those who were near them.
Just to put an interesting spin on it, Oregon is the only state that actually has a law on the books that makes it illegal to mandate vaccinations for health care workers and first responders.
I don’t know how that law interacts with the Federal mandates though.
Just an observation… and an assumption… I think the frustration over people choosing not to vaccinate itself is not the thing that makes people angry. What gets under my skin is the follow-on.
I’m sad that people are choosing to stay unvaccinated… but it’s their choice.
I’m irritated that these are often the same people that actively spread misinformation which influences others in their personal sphere to also go unvaccinated and unmasked.
I’m frustrated that these are often the same people that go unmasked in public spaces and gatherings.
I’m angry that these are often the same people who, even with people in their family household with symptoms, they refuse to get tested and still send their kids to school.
I’m absolutely fucking livid that some of these people then get sick from covid and/or consume enough horse dewormer they start taking up hospital beds that could have been used by people like me last week (thankfully I only needed to wait 18 hours for a bed).
I’m defcon level nuke these people because ultimately the combined issues 1-4 result in all of them becoming a mutation factory that threatens all of human society with perpetual covid… because of their “personal choice”.
… and yet, it is still their choice to get vaccinated or not. I support that ability to choose. However, I also support the piling on of so many indirect consequences for staying unvaccinated that it becomes a social defacto requirement. Not a legal mandate, but an invisible prison for lack of choice… an administrative ostracizing and isolation of these people from society.
Examples of this might include needing a vaccine passport to attend any large gatherings like concerts or sporting events, for example. Want to stay unvaccinated? Great! Watch the game from home.
Eat too much dewormer and now you got the sickies and want a hospital bed? Great! Remember how you kept voting against public healthcare and saying that healthcare isn’t a right but a service in the USA? Well, as a service provider, you want a hospital bed you have to get vaccinated or no bed for you… take your chances at home or be rich enough to buy your own hospital… and yes I realize the Venn diagram of voting against public healthcare doesn’t necessarily align exactly overtop people choosing to stay unvaccinated, but my assumption is that it’s pretty goddamn spot-on.
In short, the emotional reaction here is not about their choice to remain unvaccinated, it’s all the other choices and behaviors that seem to go hand in hand with that very same choice… those are the things that really make me want them to double down on the dewormer and solve my problem for me.
Yes! If unvaccinated people social distanced and wore masks it would not be as big a problem. But they are usually the ones who go around unmasked, and deliberately coughing on people.
haha holy shit, what if the zombie apocalypse is sparked not by a vaccine or virus, but by alt-right pseudo-medical offbrand treatments for covid or whatever the next pandemic is?
The alt-right would think its a communist hoax and just call it riots.
fixed it for you
I just had to go to the pharmacy to pick up some medications. So I asked the pharmacist how her stock of ivermectin is. She laughed and said “Good, I’ve been denying scripts”.
(And yes pharmacists can do that, the AMA told doctors not to prescribe it for off label use and two pharmacy bodies told their members not to fill it… Unless it is part of a clinical trial.)
While some here propose bodily autonomy, I would argue that you should not be able to make someone else give you drugs that you should not be taking. I.e. you can ask the pharmacist for cyanide, and if they give you it you can take it, but you can’t make the pharmacist give you cyanide.
Or claim that it was just “normal tourists”.
I feel you should be able to get and take the cyanide if you want.
I believe in full autonomy.
Yeah, it is your right to not get a vaccine or wear a mask or w/e, you just lose freedoms. Cause that also harms other people.
Taking a cyanide pill harms yourself.