The anti🚫-derailment🚃 & thread🧵 hijacking🔫 thread🧵 ⁉

Again, quite a sugar coating, it’s pretty sad people are cheering on this kind of sentiment

Any other groups or kinds of people it’s ok to ostracize? Or just people who do do what you want them to?

Do what I want, or you don’t get to be part of society or have rights…

And people wonder why those that are hesitant or unconvinced are becoming entrenched in refusal

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I’m actually a very open-minded person. I don’t think prisons should exist, for example. They more often result in people become repeat offenders rather than rehabilitating people and helping them rejoin society. Take a look at what the Netherlands have done. They actually have to rent out their prisons as hotels because it would otherwise be more economical to demolish them.

My meaning was not for these foolish people to be put in jail. They either need to be educated because they do not understand the consequences of their actions, or they are making an intentional choice to hurt the society they are a part of. If they are hurting their society, then they are not participating in that society. If that is their choice, they are free to make it, but then I also think the society should have the freedom to keep them at a distance so they cannot cause further harm. What would you recommend as an alternative?
~ Jamie

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I never said anything about jail, kinda terrifying that that was even an option in this context

Stop trying to FORCE people to do things, and accept that at the end of the day… not everyone is going to agree and come to the same decisions as you

You don’t get to then call them stupid because they don’t agree with you

Should someone who has tattoos that are offensive to the community, have them forcibly removed?

@Eriequiet
There’s a thing called loyal opposition, where a person or person disagrees without trying to tear the whole system down. Kind of a devil’s advocate. It has a huge role in consensus building.

Just wanted to say that even though we disagree on stuff, I appreciate, and thank you for, your opposition, your viewpoint.

Disagreeing, civilly, is an amazingly constructive force.

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Can you put this in context for me? I’m not picking a fight I just don’t understand what you’re trying to say here but I’m open to hearing more

Totally agree,
I fully understand that I’m in the minority, and I’m not advocating against vaccines,
I’ve convinced a couple coworkers to do it

But bodily autonomy and personal freedom is the small hill I choose to die on,

If you don’t have control or choice over your body,
You have nothing, in a nutshell for me

And the way that society is polarizing and dehumanizing, is profoundly sad…
the fact people can laugh and feel as sense of satisfaction that people choosing to not get vaccinated are dying is sickening

Are they problems and issues and fallout from personal choice? Yep
But the ends just don’t justify the means for me

think in political terms.
I’m a constructionist, and you’re an agrarian. (make believe parties)

One of us is running the goverment by virtue of having more seats in congress, presidency, etc.

The other, essentially in the minority, will oppose the goals and policies of the first, but without being destructive. Polite opposition. It makes for good debate, and often shakes out a middle, more constructive, collaborative approach.

OR…
Think in terms of family. We might bicker and fight, but in good humour. Never losing sight of the greater good / family goals.

Just didn’t want you to think your view was unappreciated. I disagree, but also see your points. In the long term those points will blend in to my understanding of the whole.

Ok, I’m admittedly being thick now lol

Are you saying I am doing this?
I should be doing this?
Society needs more of this?

I just lost context for the comment :upside_down_face:

Edit, I see your edit and I understand now

What’s frustrating, not necessarily in this thread, but in general

I support the goal, but not the approach or means…
But everything is so polarized that there is no longer means of having this conversation

You’re either all in, or you’re an anti vaxer

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Yeah, it’s late and I’m being obscure.

You are doing it, and it’s a good thing.
If we all just agreed, then we’d come to some pretty stupid conclusions. And that is a concept called the echo chamber. Where people with similar group think gather together and just tell themselves what they want to hear and it goes back and forth that way.

Loyal opposition

Echo Chamber

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Yea I’m familiar with echo chambers, and I actively try to avoid, wasn’t familiar with loyal opposition, but I like it… seems like something we’ve lost

Lately I just relate way to much with padme at the end of star wars III

image

I’m headed off to bed, but I’ll leave this. There are limits to everything. Because unlimited freedom is pure anarchy.

Where to draw the line is fuzzy at best though. In my opinion, once someone else’s freedom begins causing me and others harm, it’s time for that line to be drawn.

We already require vaccines. You can’t go to public school (in the U.S.) without them, or do a whole bunch of other things, because opting out puts everyone at risk. We require them to prevent people’s choices from harming others. This is exactly that.

If the fallout from the choice was self contained, then sure, let everyone do whatever they choose. But it’s not. I’m being harmed. Financially, physically, mentally. Every day. I find it perfectly reasonable to require people to take a vaccine to prevent them from further harming me, or other people. Especially as it is such a high ratio return on risk/reward.

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You get to call them stupid because you have the freedom of speech to do so.

You get to call them stupid because they think their opinions are more valid than facts and science.

You get to call them stupid because they spread misinformation to other gullible stupid people

You get to call them stupid because they are also are putting others at risk.

They are worse than Flat Earthers at least Flat Earthers they are harmless to others…

Anti vaxers are anti-societal and selfish FUCK TARDS

The difference is, the tattoos do not harm others, so, No.

Vaccinations are for the greater good.

download

Nobody here is disagreeing with that at all, None of the Anti-vaxxers have to get vaccinated, but they should also not be surprised or complain when they are refused jobs, travel etc.
Auckland airport workers, no Vaccine = No Job.
The Cook Islands ( Another country with ZERO Covid ) No Vaccine = No Travel.

Just don’t complain or spread misinformation and stay the fuck away from others you selfish cunts.
The only difference from an assault is the legal backing, and you could argue the intent.

Also, @Eriequiet not attacking you, or your opinion, and again, everybody here believes in body autonomy, they just have to keep their body away from others.

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:joy: that’s fair

On everything else, I’m going to sum it up,
I’m not bucking the system, but the effect it’s having on people

The polarization and dehumanizing effect, it’s like a 21st century Salem witch trial
I see a lot of anger (justified emotion), but I see a lot of unhealthy projection happening as a form of self defense mechanisms

Lol, remember words are now harmful these days

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I was sent this yesterday

IMG-457af39ef71b3d4f0227315a0f67ccae-V

:rofl:

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Actually, I was calling them stupid for taking unproven medications (for the use they are taking them) that are intended for animals because they think that the tested, proven option is somehow more dangerous than the untested unproven one. Not because they don’t agree with me.

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That comment was in reference to the “education camp” comment

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So, I have to say that mostly I agree with you @Eriequiet the problem is the us vs them polarisation that has happened. I don’t know how to fix it.

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First step to a problem is admitting it,
Second step is not perpetuating it,

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Well, I manage to have civilized conversations with my co-workers about politics. We usually agree to disagree.

Part of the issue is the partisan mentality that seems to dominate. Antifa and the proud boys for example remind me of nothing more than soccer hooligans from the 80s and 90s. They didn’t care about the football as much as the fighting.

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As long as women can have abortions freely in your ethical model then we Gucci. Your opinion doesn’t affect me because you got the vaccine. If you didn’t though, it would be an issue. Personal autonomy doesn’t mean you can limit the autonomy of others (including death from covid)

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Totes

Week or so ago I specifically said,
Forcing or FORBIDDING, medical procedures is wrong

If you want an abortion, your body your choice, there are ethics involved but that’s for you to wrestle with

Also, I have a friend that has been repeatedly denied sterilization services, also fucked

I agree, but it’s a tricky line also

I don’t necessarily agree with the premise that person A not getting vaccinated limits the autonomy of person B

Worlds not a safe place, and there are no guarantees

I put the burden on person B, if they aren’t willing to deal with the fact that the could be exposed, then THEY should be the one isolated, because they are the only ones responsible for themselves

I truly think, at the very heart of it, this is the real disagreement