Again, quite a sugar coating, itās pretty sad people are cheering on this kind of sentiment
Any other groups or kinds of people itās ok to ostracize? Or just people who do do what you want them to?
Do what I want, or you donāt get to be part of society or have rightsā¦
And people wonder why those that are hesitant or unconvinced are becoming entrenched in refusal
Iām actually a very open-minded person. I donāt think prisons should exist, for example. They more often result in people become repeat offenders rather than rehabilitating people and helping them rejoin society. Take a look at what the Netherlands have done. They actually have to rent out their prisons as hotels because it would otherwise be more economical to demolish them.
My meaning was not for these foolish people to be put in jail. They either need to be educated because they do not understand the consequences of their actions, or they are making an intentional choice to hurt the society they are a part of. If they are hurting their society, then they are not participating in that society. If that is their choice, they are free to make it, but then I also think the society should have the freedom to keep them at a distance so they cannot cause further harm. What would you recommend as an alternative?
~ Jamie
I never said anything about jail, kinda terrifying that that was even an option in this context
Stop trying to FORCE people to do things, and accept that at the end of the dayā¦ not everyone is going to agree and come to the same decisions as you
You donāt get to then call them stupid because they donāt agree with you
Should someone who has tattoos that are offensive to the community, have them forcibly removed?
@Eriequiet
Thereās a thing called loyal opposition, where a person or person disagrees without trying to tear the whole system down. Kind of a devilās advocate. It has a huge role in consensus building.
Just wanted to say that even though we disagree on stuff, I appreciate, and thank you for, your opposition, your viewpoint.
Disagreeing, civilly, is an amazingly constructive force.
Can you put this in context for me? Iām not picking a fight I just donāt understand what youāre trying to say here but Iām open to hearing more
Totally agree,
I fully understand that Iām in the minority, and Iām not advocating against vaccines,
Iāve convinced a couple coworkers to do it
But bodily autonomy and personal freedom is the small hill I choose to die on,
If you donāt have control or choice over your body,
You have nothing, in a nutshell for me
And the way that society is polarizing and dehumanizing, is profoundly sadā¦
the fact people can laugh and feel as sense of satisfaction that people choosing to not get vaccinated are dying is sickening
Are they problems and issues and fallout from personal choice? Yep
But the ends just donāt justify the means for me
think in political terms.
Iām a constructionist, and youāre an agrarian. (make believe parties)
One of us is running the goverment by virtue of having more seats in congress, presidency, etc.
The other, essentially in the minority, will oppose the goals and policies of the first, but without being destructive. Polite opposition. It makes for good debate, and often shakes out a middle, more constructive, collaborative approach.
ORā¦
Think in terms of family. We might bicker and fight, but in good humour. Never losing sight of the greater good / family goals.
Just didnāt want you to think your view was unappreciated. I disagree, but also see your points. In the long term those points will blend in to my understanding of the whole.
Ok, Iām admittedly being thick now lol
Are you saying I am doing this?
I should be doing this?
Society needs more of this?
I just lost context for the comment 
Edit, I see your edit and I understand now
Whatās frustrating, not necessarily in this thread, but in general
I support the goal, but not the approach or meansā¦
But everything is so polarized that there is no longer means of having this conversation
Youāre either all in, or youāre an anti vaxer
Yeah, itās late and Iām being obscure.
You are doing it, and itās a good thing.
If we all just agreed, then weād come to some pretty stupid conclusions. And that is a concept called the echo chamber. Where people with similar group think gather together and just tell themselves what they want to hear and it goes back and forth that way.
Loyal opposition
Echo Chamber
Yea Iām familiar with echo chambers, and I actively try to avoid, wasnāt familiar with loyal opposition, but I like itā¦ seems like something weāve lost
Lately I just relate way to much with padme at the end of star wars III
Iām headed off to bed, but Iāll leave this. There are limits to everything. Because unlimited freedom is pure anarchy.
Where to draw the line is fuzzy at best though. In my opinion, once someone elseās freedom begins causing me and others harm, itās time for that line to be drawn.
We already require vaccines. You canāt go to public school (in the U.S.) without them, or do a whole bunch of other things, because opting out puts everyone at risk. We require them to prevent peopleās choices from harming others. This is exactly that.
If the fallout from the choice was self contained, then sure, let everyone do whatever they choose. But itās not. Iām being harmed. Financially, physically, mentally. Every day. I find it perfectly reasonable to require people to take a vaccine to prevent them from further harming me, or other people. Especially as it is such a high ratio return on risk/reward.
You get to call them stupid because you have the freedom of speech to do so.
You get to call them stupid because they think their opinions are more valid than facts and science.
You get to call them stupid because they spread misinformation to other gullible stupid people
You get to call them stupid because they are also are putting others at risk.
They are worse than Flat Earthers at least Flat Earthers they are harmless to othersā¦
Anti vaxers are anti-societal and selfish FUCK TARDS
The difference is, the tattoos do not harm others, so, No.
Vaccinations are for the greater good.
Nobody here is disagreeing with that at all, None of the Anti-vaxxers have to get vaccinated, but they should also not be surprised or complain when they are refused jobs, travel etc.
Auckland airport workers, no Vaccine = No Job.
The Cook Islands ( Another country with ZERO Covid ) No Vaccine = No Travel.
Just donāt complain or spread misinformation and stay the fuck away from others you selfish cunts.
The only difference from an assault is the legal backing, and you could argue the intent.
Also, @Eriequiet not attacking you, or your opinion, and again, everybody here believes in body autonomy, they just have to keep their body away from others.
thatās fair
On everything else, Iām going to sum it up,
Iām not bucking the system, but the effect itās having on people
The polarization and dehumanizing effect, itās like a 21st century Salem witch trial
I see a lot of anger (justified emotion), but I see a lot of unhealthy projection happening as a form of self defense mechanisms
Lol, remember words are now harmful these days
I was sent this yesterday
Actually, I was calling them stupid for taking unproven medications (for the use they are taking them) that are intended for animals because they think that the tested, proven option is somehow more dangerous than the untested unproven one. Not because they donāt agree with me.
That comment was in reference to the āeducation campā comment
So, I have to say that mostly I agree with you @Eriequiet the problem is the us vs them polarisation that has happened. I donāt know how to fix it.
First step to a problem is admitting it,
Second step is not perpetuating it,
Well, I manage to have civilized conversations with my co-workers about politics. We usually agree to disagree.
Part of the issue is the partisan mentality that seems to dominate. Antifa and the proud boys for example remind me of nothing more than soccer hooligans from the 80s and 90s. They didnāt care about the football as much as the fighting.
As long as women can have abortions freely in your ethical model then we Gucci. Your opinion doesnāt affect me because you got the vaccine. If you didnāt though, it would be an issue. Personal autonomy doesnāt mean you can limit the autonomy of others (including death from covid)
Totes
Week or so ago I specifically said,
Forcing or FORBIDDING, medical procedures is wrong
If you want an abortion, your body your choice, there are ethics involved but thatās for you to wrestle with
Also, I have a friend that has been repeatedly denied sterilization services, also fucked
I agree, but itās a tricky line also
I donāt necessarily agree with the premise that person A not getting vaccinated limits the autonomy of person B
Worlds not a safe place, and there are no guarantees
I put the burden on person B, if they arenāt willing to deal with the fact that the could be exposed, then THEY should be the one isolated, because they are the only ones responsible for themselves
I truly think, at the very heart of it, this is the real disagreement