The anti🚫-derailment🚃 & thread🧵 hijacking🔫 thread🧵 ⁉

[ODaily]

The answer to all these questions is simply Windows.

Windows need competition. It is currently the only viable OS out there for mainstream use. Yes, I’m ignoring apple, and I’ll stop when they come out of their little walled garden to play with everyone.

So, Windows needs competition. Real viable Competition.

• Linux is the only currently viable option.
• Linux has sucked all the oxygen out of the room in a way that makes any other potential competition die stilborn.
• There are GUI’s for Linux, but any time a user has a problem the solution is always, just pop open the command line and “sudo” “bash” and see how easy it was? Spoiler, for most people it’s incomprehensible.
• The result is a defacto Windows monoply with all the associated behavior.

So when you see Windows components being offered as subscriptions, Massive bloatware, being forced into the Windows “stuff” a.k.a. needing a Microsoft account just to run it, and the blatant data harvesting / and deliberate refusal and/or obfuscation of opt out for any of it. l look around, and blame Linux.

I blame them for being unadoptable for the average user, and for cock blocking anyone else by their simple existence.

[Jammyjellyfish]

Totally agree. Linux is really terrible. Like how expensive it is. Luckily for the developers, they’re getting paid a ton of money. It’s crazy how Linux is such a walled garden too. You’d think they’d have some support for old hardware but I guess you have to keep the profits going. I wish they’d invest some of that huge profit into hiring developers who actually gave a shit.
I really hope Microsoft will gain some more market share and save us from this insanity. Their software is so much more reliable. I’ve never had any program on windows crash. And thank god for their descriptive error messages. It makes troubleshooting any windows issue a breeze.

[Not]

Two tips:
man [program]
[program] --help

[ODaily]

@Not

Two tips:
man [program]
[program] --help

This is exactly what I’m talking about. On a technical level, I’m an above average user. And I’m running Windows because I struggle so hard with it. An average average user is gonna be hopelessly lost.

Snark aside, Jammyjellyfish has some really valid points, about Windows.

My point is, that Linux is responsible for maintaining Windows hyper dominance.

@pilgrimsmaster, could we maybe spin this portion off into a separate thread.

[Not]

Quick skim, nothing too weird here.

I’ll be home in a few hours… Have to dig a hole then crack a cold one with the girls.

I may not get back on this till tomorrow.

[Hamspiced]

So i didnt figure it out. but it fixed itself.

Accidentally looped the internal network interfaces. added two interfaces to the virtual bridge.

unadded it, and it started working again. NO IDEA WHY

[Jammyjellyfish]

@ODaily

Snark aside, Jammyjellyfish has some really valid points, about Windows.

Linux is not the enemy. It’s desktop market share is 2.33% [1]. There are no viable other options because:

• anti competitive behavior of Microsoft and Apple
• the software industry not wanting to support multiple OSs
• Other companies with competing OSs failing

Not because Linux exists.

Terminal usage in Linux is necessary for it’s usage. A majority (or at least extremely significant portion) of linux installs don’t have screens. They are managed through a text prompt because:

• saves resources
• GUIs are complicated
• Easier to transmit text than full GUIs

But that doesn’t mean the desktop experience isn’t getting any love. Linux is getting better. For example, KDE Plasma 6 is a significant leap forward for user friendliness. Bugs are getting fixed, more effort is being put on the user facing experience [2].

The reason linux isn’t better is:

• Lack of funding for maintainers and projects
• Hardware vendors not supporting other OSs or making their drivers open

But this also boils down to what you think is wrong with linux. Valve released the Steam Deck a few years ago, it’s target audience being gamers. It’s received great reviews.

It looks like your major gripes are around system administration - self hosting web applications. This is going to be a lot of terminal and config files, for the reasons listed above. There are GUI options. But you will need to touch the terminal. Even if this was truly windows based, you’d likely be dealing with powershell scripts instead - which I promise is worse. What you’re doing isn’t meant for the average user, so don’t expect the experience to be tailored for one.

That being said, I’d love it if there were more software configuration wizards. I hate having to read through 30 minutes of documentation just to run a web app.

Linux isn’t perfect, it will never be, but it’s not because of linux or it’s maintainers.

You can be the change you want to be though! It’s all open. Contribute to documentation, report bugs, petition your employer and government to sponsor and support FOSS projects, donate!

[1] Desktop Linux Market Share: April 2025
[2] The 15-Minute Bug Initiative – Adventures in Linux and KDE

[Hamspiced]

I dont hate linux. it’s powerful. I just hate negotiating with my computer to do what i want. Lunux seems like the negotiations wont be as difficult, but i need that ease of use now so i can spend less time on my computer.

[Jammyjellyfish]

Just to be clear, this was mostly a reply to @ODaily

Networking is a different topic I have a long list of complaints about

[Hamspiced]

oh i dont mean networking. i mean i feel like im in a hostage negotiation

[Jammyjellyfish]

Yeah I feel that a lot too

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@ODaily

@pilgrimsmaster, could we maybe spin this portion off into a separate thread.

Sure
Thread or derailment?

From which post?

If everybody has used the reply function properly, i can simply select that post and replies to the move it.
Which is easier / faster than selecting individually

I’ll include your post and mine

[ODaily]

How about from Amal down?
Derail probably. I think there was a cross post there too, so that makes the most sense.

[ODaily]

@Jammyjellyfish

But this also boils down to what you think is wrong with linux.

Absolutely true. Ask 100 people, get at least 200 opinions. Viewpoints vary wildly. But I will note that people who love Linux love it absolutely, same with people who don’t.

@Jammyjellyfish

Linux is not the enemy. It’s desktop market share is 2.33% [1]. There are no viable other options because:

• anti competitive behavior of Microsoft and Apple
• the software industry not wanting to support multiple OSs
• Other companies with competing OSs failing

Not because Linux exists.

This is probably where our viewpoints begin to diverge.
I do not view Linux as the enemy, but to a certain extent the obstacle. Why? Because…

@Jammyjellyfish

It’s desktop market share is 2.33%

And it’s going to stay there as going up the learning curve is more like climbing a learning cliff. It’s not accessible to mainstream users. And (this is what touched off this whole convo) it never will be, as long as the answer to most any question involves the command line. Normal people just can’t. So market share stays low, and Windows stays dominant.

Then there’s this…

@Jammyjellyfish

Other companies with competing OSs failing

There is no other alternative to Windows. Trust me on this one, I’ve looked HARD. The closest thing I ever found was ReactOS, which is languishing in development hell. Where it will stay as anyone who is capable of developing an operating system is just fine with running everything command line. So they gravitate to Linux development. Even developers who want something different, just make a new flavor of Linux.

So boiling it down, my general take is (opinions vary) that Linux is unnadoptable for most users due to it’s learning curve / command line format, which leaves only a monopolistic Windows, while simultaneously absorbing any realistic development effort to any other alternatives.

@Jammyjellyfish

Linux is getting better.

This one kinda hits home. See, I first tried linux on my first purpose built computer. Which had this brand new fangled technology called a “Dual Core” processer. Basically for as long as I’ve been interested in computers. I couldn’t then either and ended up with XP. And back then everyone told me over and over Linux is getting better. It’ll be as useable as Windows any day now. It’s practically the OG “soon”.

So what’s all this mean?
If you can Linux, you probably love it.
If you can’t, you’re using Windows.
And I think that sucketh mightily.

[Jammyjellyfish]

@ODaily

I do not view Linux as the enemy

@ODaily

I blame them for being unadoptable for the average user, and for cock blocking anyone else by their simple existence.

Sounds like you view it as an enemy, but sure.

@ODaily

@Jammyjellyfish

ther companies with competing OSs failing

There is no other alternative to Windows.

When I said competing OSs failing, I mean:

• Amiga’s AmigaOS - 1985
• Apollo Computer/HP’s Domain/OS - 1981
• Be Inc’s BE OS - 1995
• Berkeley Softworks’ GEOS - 1986
• Fujitsu’s TownOS - 1989
• etc

These are all OSs that to some degree either competed with windows, or could have. Linux being released in 1991, and lets say generally usable around 1996 with version 2.0.0 [1]. It was not Linux, the free OS, that doomed these other projects and subjected us to Windows hell.

@ODaily

Linux is unnadoptable for most users due to it’s learning curve / command line format

I’m not saying it’s perfect, but if you’re just doing web browsing with the occasional game and word processing, the person who is able to install it [2] won’t have an issue using it.

@ODaily

while simultaneously absorbing any realistic development effort to any other alternatives.

With the linux kernel, you have a:

• Extremely well tested and stable kernel
  • Multithreading
  • drivers
  • networking
  • thread scheduling
  • file system support
  • etc.

All free to use in other projects. Linux is the reason why we have android, which is the only competition to iOS.

If there were to be another operating system, they most likely use the linux kernel, or they would have to support extremely specific hardware and become apple. Linux existing isn’t preventing other OSs from becoming viable, as proven with android, it supports other operating systems.

How can you argue that it’s absorbing any realistic development from any alternatives? Any alternative would need either:

• an insane amount of funding, and years to be developed, with buy in from multiple large companies working together to ensure hardware support (practically impossible)
• it would be open source like linux, with multiple users and companies improving it to their own needs, and thus would just be linux
• so niche it would be useless

@ODaily

first tried linux on my first purpose built computer. Which had this brand new fangled technology called a “Dual Core” processer.

What’s the latest version you’ve tried?

@ODaily

If you can Linux, you probably love it.
If you can’t, you’re using Windows.
And I think that sucketh mightily.

Agreed for the most part

And to close my argument:

@ODaily

Normal people just can’t

“Normal” people also can’t use windows to it’s full potential either. What happens to the average person if windows update breaks? They sit on that version of windows until their family tech person can help them, or until a virus locks their computer down so bad they have to call geeksquad.

All computers have learning curves.

[2] - by which I mean a slightly above average user, capable of burning an ISO to a usb drive, turning off secure boot in bios, and installing the OS

[enginerd]

@ODaily

Linux has sucked all the oxygen out of the room in a way that makes any other potential competition die stilborn.

Linux provides a solid foundation for building operating systems. Building what you claim the world needs would be a lot harder without it.

Besides, Linux was created because Unix was prohibitively expensive. It was never intended to replace the ubiquitous Windows… So I doubt that Linux is the reason why there’s no alternative to Windows yet.

The conditions might not be right for a better Desktop OS to emerge, but Linux became the foundation of great things that would’ve never been possible on Windows.

Valve released a Linux based OS for their Steamdeck and there are nice GUIs so there’s progress in the bringing Linux to consumers front. However, there’s still a long way to go and Linux might never become a consumer OS.

@ODaily

just pop open the command line and “sudo” “bash” and see how easy it was? Spoiler, for most people it’s incomprehensible

Ever messed with the Windows Register or Group Policies? Those are even harder to understand… A consumer OS doesn’t need an easy to understand GUI for everything, it has to work well for the vast majority of people without having to mess with those settings.

[ODaily]

@Jammyjellyfish

Sounds like you view it as an enemy, but sure.

This might be a spot we can work out our difference on, even if we come to different conclusions.

I’d say there are roughly 3 levels.

Obstacle. To passively impede. If, while walking, I encounter a wall, I’ve found an obstacle. It is completely passive and does nothing.

Oppose, to actively work against. We are having a difference of opinion, we are both putting thought and effort into it, we are opposed, or in opposition.

Enemy, to oppose with force. If a 3rd major OS were to come on scene, Microsoft would deploy a legion of lawyers to apply legal force. Microsoft would definitely be an enemy of that OS.

I consider Linux to be a passive impediment. I guess you could even say I oppose it, as I’m making an active argument. But I’m not trying to force or harm it, nor is it doing so to I. We are not enemies.

It’s also really important to note something. It’s something I encounter when expressing my opinion to people who love linux.

I hate Linux. That does not mean that I disrespect what it is, what it has accomplished, or what it’s potential is.
I hate beer. And it’s entirely responsible for the rise of civilizations. We wouldn’t have major cities without it. I can respect that, and I hate beer.

[frail_rearranger]

Streaming was never a service. It’s nothing more than deleting the file while you’re watching it so that you can’t quickly rewind, fast forward again, or watch in a media player that is any good at a time that works for you. Adds zero value.

Before google pushed the part file, every video download was a stream. Begin download, open your media player, start watching. (I know this isn’t recommended, but always worked fine for me and there are tools for doing it more correctly.)

[frail_rearranger]

@ODaily

So what’s all this mean?
If you can Linux, you probably love it.
If you can’t, you’re using Windows.
And I think that sucketh mightily.

I think most can use linux, but I certainly wouldn’t recommend it to everyone. The level of understanding one needs to use linux is about the same as the level one needs to use windows competently.

I don’t hate Windows though. Well, I haven’t used it in years, and I hear it’s gotten worse since, but I don’t hate the Windows I remember. Good for gaming. UI is much better thought out than Mac. Isn’t useless like ChromOS. Obfuscation / pseudosimplicity isn’t as bad as Mac/ChromOS, though they were starting to go Macrosoft last I used it, like making their own music disorganiser.

Do love linux though.

[amal]

@frail_rearranger

Begin download, open your media player, start watching. (I know this isn’t recommended, but always worked fine for me and there are tools for doing it more correctly.)

Absolutely… but technically it requires the media be encoded in a streamable codec. You could not stream an AVI file this way. Transcoding solves this problem, but I digress…