Could a stun gun be implanted?

[vampire_blue]

@Perpetuapolyphemus

When they were getting physical with her and following us on an empty road, I feel like feeling threatened was appropriate

It is appropriate to feel threatened

@Perpetuapolyphemus

What would you have done? Let them catch up to us, take me down and do God knows what to her?

But this is silly, You are saying there is only fight or submit. Why not call the cops, go into an establishment, or just putting more space between you two and the drunks.
I know I don’t know the full situation as you haven’t put it in detail, but there is a lot of precautionary things you could have put in place.

@Perpetuapolyphemus

The problem with pepper spray is that you need time to take the safety off which, in a fight, you simply don’t have. Plus, you can accidentally spray yourself if you don’t know which way the wind is blowing.

This feels like picking at straws, in the situation you mentioned down bellow, pepper spray could have been effective, or even a handheld taser if it came to be closer. Fuck they even put tasers in phone cases nowadays.

I know your question is if it could be done, not if it was practical. so yes? but not in a way that is at all an implant. something like this would be like a power glove that zaps. We have talked about microdermals before and their constant rejection rate, plus the issue of grounding, I don’t care how insulated you think you are, having electric metal embedded in your skin is gonna try make its way to ground via you.

[Eriequiet]

@vampire_blue

Fuck they even put tasers in phone cases nowadays.

Stun gun, yes there’s a difference

[vampire_blue]

yea sorry stun gun, imagine how much of a pain putting a loaded prong kit into a phone case would be…

[Coma]

@Eriequiet

I’m being fully serious, you need to drop the macho ego, when I worked as an instructor I failed students for the shit you’re saying now, it’s going to do nothing but dig you a hole

Thanks - this is exactly what I was trying to say.
All the stuff he wrote just sounded a lot too offensive for being used for self-defense…

[Eriequiet]

@Coma

Thanks - this is exactly what I was trying to say.
All the stuff he wrote just sounded a lot too offensive for being used for self-defense…

Yea I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt at first,

But there’s a chunk of people who aren’t REALLY looking to defend themselves, they are looking for an excuse to be the tough guy without being the bad guy, walking around with a chip on your shoulder

We call them the “I wish they would” person, sooo many articles of these people going to jail for becoming a mutual combatant or trying to play cop

One of the first lessons I try to teach people, and it’s also the hardest,

you win every fight you avoid

Even if you beat the other guy, you still loose because depending on the force level, your night is ruined, people think less of you, you are probably going to jail either way that night, might spend up to 50k in legal defense to prove your innocence
(Know several this has happened to)

Seriously, FIRST take some LESS LETHAL training, not a conceal carry class, then if you feel the need for a higher level of force,get a carry license and carry a gun (but I would seriously rethink your stance and perspectives first, but hey your freedom on the line not mine)

[Coma]

@Eriequiet

you win every fight you avoid

This.
But far too many (especially men) think they have to be one of those “I-wish-they-would-persons” to impress their girlfriend or whatever…

Honestly, I like it when a man looks like he could defend (!) himself. But someone actually getting in a serious fight, no matter the outcome, leads to all involved people instantly losing their sexyness

@Eriequiet

One of the first lessons I try to teach people

We had this interesting discussion about guns and self-defense in the derail-thread, and I think I forgot to mention it there, but I’m really happy that there are instructors with a mindset like yours

[Eriequiet]

@Coma

We had this interesting discussion about guns and self-defense in the derail-thread, and I think I forgot to mention it there, but I’m really happy that there are instructors with a mindset like yours

Thanks,
I’ll be honest though, I had a few years too where I thought I was hot shit

The dunning kruger effect is very strong in the self defense / gun community (different communities but similar issues)

Without fail you’re the cockiest when you’re also the most ignorant,

This is why I advocate training very passionately, and rarely call my self an expert at anything, I consider myself a professional student
(There’s more than one valley of despair in that graph lol)
The phrase “you don’t know what you don’t know”
Was pounded into my head by instructors far wiser than me that I was lucky to be a student of,
It’s meaning takes a while to fully digest and absorb however

What genuinely sucks is that it’s honestly a lot harder to try to teach people about LESS lethal force than lethal, because of ego / misconceptions / more nuance

[Eyeux]

@Eriequiet has already expertly pointed out most of the issues. @Coma, and @vampire_blue have already pointed out your main issues… so I’ll abstain from commenting further on these.

I can understand your frustration, though. And I can see why your ego is hurt and screaming for you to “look stronger”. But that won’t help you.

@Perpetuapolyphemus

being able to actually teach that lesson without using lethal force is a good ability

I’m abstaining from questioning your motives (despite pottentialy agreeing with them) to focus only on the fallacy of your approach to these.

And with that said, you need to understand that having an intimidating body is a bad thing, not a good one. And for so many reasons!

So for the sake of argumentation, let’s just assume I am a bully and you are the guy coming in to defend my poor victim, ok?

If you show up with a very intimidating body, and I “the bully” am there with my posse. I simply cannot back out now. Because I must show o my posse that I am the “alpha male”.

So by looking intimidating, you are the one escalating the situation.

Now I will be actually afraid, but because I cannot demonstrate, I will go for you with all I have. Which most likely includes at least a knife or a gun.

Let’s assume you beat the crap out of me…

Because you are menacing, my posse will see you as an enemy, and they all will go for you.

Given that you are relying on weapons and on “making yourself menacing”, I seriously doubt you would win this battle against many.

Now you lie beaten out, and because of you there is a posse of people full of adrenaline and a defenseless victim there. trust me: they will now beat the crap out of those innocents, much worst than if you did nothing.

---

Now picture the same scene…

But instead of having a body that looks super intimidating and a bunch of weapons… you just look like a normal guy.

You come up to me, but this time I, “the bully”, don’t feel threatened by you. This is a great thing.

Why so?
Because firstly I will feel overconfident instead. This is my chance to show off to my posse. So I will mock you. I will make fun of you.

But you won’t back off… So I will either push you or try to punch you. That’s when you can throw me on the ground and toss in a smirk remark.

Done. With that you saved a victim. Because now you discredited me. Which triggers a social behaviour where my posse will predate upon myself. They won’t give a fuck about the defenseless victim anymore.

I will try to beat you, of course, but now I will be unballanced with rage. So if you know how to fight, you can beat me easily. and that’s all you will need to do. The posse won’t be a problem anymore. The victim will be safe.

---

I am not telling you all this just to be “politically correct” or to “try and get you safe”.

I am telling you this as someone who obviously have seen, and been, on far too many more of those shitty situations than you. And who also chose to keep his head high.
As someone who grew up a goth kid in a city riddled with neo-nazi gangs…
Where you would have to always be alert and ready to jump to the ground, even on your own home, not to be hit by a stray bullet.

So trust me on this one:

You don’t want to “make your body into a menacing weapon”.
You want to learn how to fight instead.

Because when you do, when you truly learn how to fight, you’ll get past the need for vulgar displays of power or ego boosts.
You’ll understand that every single fight, every one of those shitty situations… they are determined way before the first blow is dealt.
And knowing this will allow you to protect others without even needing to actually fight.

Just pick an art that has some philosophy behind it. Some form of Budo, or a non-westernized Muay Thai, or a traditional Kung Fu, etc…

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@Pilgrimsmaster

Did you post you question on https://forum.biohack.me/ ?

@Perpetuapolyphemus

I signed up for it. Waiting to be let in.

Have biohack.me approved your application yet.

If so, have they given you any feedback / suggestions yet?

[Atilla]

WARNING: Contains graphic images!
Oh boy, I missed out on this gemstone
@Perpetuapolyphemus, let me join to the conversation please!

INTRO

For the sake of some brain exercise please let me join the conversation! I will ignore ethical, philosophical or any moral background of the project. It seems to be well-discussed =)

I’ll pretend like there was a cyborg movie, where some has stunning implant, literally, and we have to reverse-engineer the story:

Our hero, who I will call Arnie, has 2 gold studs implanted
at position 1 and 3 on both hands.
Arnie is a body guard, so he wants to knock out enemies.

(و •̀ ᴗ•́ )و

He knows from experience that 10 000uF is plenty of capacity to be scared of ,
so he has 2 solid state capacitors encapsulated and implanted in his forearms,
because the skin is rather loose there.

Arnie experimented before with different stuff,

however his piercer recommended him a 450V upgrade. Now he is not only stunning, but also shocking =)

The capacitor’s pins are connected to the surface studs via mesh conductors, those are encapsulated in polymer.

The shocker is charged by an external device, by placing the studs against a high voltage output.

Arnie is very careful when charging his implant, he remembers little Billy
having his capacitors exploded when those implanst got over charged.

It wasn’t fun mopping up that mess little Billys arm left that day…

Later Arnie realises that this amount of stuff restricts him in using his hand,

admits it was silly idea getting those implants ¯\ (ツ)/¯ ︵ ┻━┻
and opting for the exo-skeleton , that was suggested by @Pilgrimsmaster
He drops it off at the hack space around the corner to be equipped with thermal grill (do your research!) conductors for further fun.

The End
PS.: He became religious, like Jules in Pulp Fiction, made friends with and eel, who lives in his pocket since then, shocking people around the globe. They lived happily ever after…

To summerise: possible in theory, but not recommended.

[Moonman0922]

Jesus fuck man that image is brutal. I very much do not like Mr Spaghetti arm there.
Anyways, after reading through this I tend to agree with @Eyeux @Coma and @Eriequiet on the moral side of fighting and I think most of us here have similar views on weaponized implants, probably not super great, but pretty much inevitable. I did really want to chime in on the technical side because I think this is very doable and not that hard.

The basic idea is to pretty much reform the hand to make this happen. Pretty invasive, yes but doable on a grinders budget. Firstly, you need to deal with power. Batteries are bad, same with caps. I’m pretty dead set against any internal batteries or caps save super super small ones with advanced polymers, I forget the name but it’s made for medical use, I’ll edit later. The only workaround out there is entirely encasing the implant in something capable of withstanding the potential explosion. That leaves titanium. So you’d need to design a case that encases the implant, save ~ 4 wires. Laser sintered would work. You could then fairly safely use capacitors.
Secondly you’d need solid connection mounting points for the spikes. Thankfully there’s tons of resources on regrowing ( or growing!) bones. So you’d be using these osteoblast scaffolds to incorporate the third part.
Over at biohack.me there was some awesome work at transdermal ports. Chironex and Zwytech actually succeeded in replacing a circle of a mouse’s skin with I believe polycarbonate? With a thicker ring of a similarly insinuating material integrated into the skin with the spike in the center you could have the spike in the bone and not have a gaping wolverine wound. I think thats all I came up with, sorry for the ramble!

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@Moonman0922

Over at biohack.me there was some awesome work at transdermal ports.

It’s almost like this whole thread would have been better suited over on their forum

[Atilla]

Partially agree, but I’ll invite @Eyeux and co- to a conversation about morality:
Should a transhumanist church postulate about the peaceful application of body mods?
I draw parallel between this topic and the Article IV of the Outer Space Treaty / Militarising Space

[ThePolishedTurd]

I would also like to know what is up with Mr Spaghetti Arm. Thats pretty gory.

[Eriequiet]

@Moonman0922

With a thicker ring of a similarly insinuating material integrated into the skin with the spike in the center

I’d like to take the opportunity to kick the dead horse, the “spikes” would need to be extended significantly out of the hand, Wolverine style, or else it will just happily arc to your hand and complete the circuit shocking you in the process

[Eyeux]

Ok, let’s talk technicals!

@Moonman0922

The only workaround out there is entirely encasing the implant in something capable of withstanding the potential explosion

That is not a workaround at all.
Ok… you encase a battery pack in titanium, so when it explodes, the titanium won’t allow any fragments to shatter inside of you. Great!

But…

What happens to all that kinectic energy released by the explosion?

It will accumulate and be applied internally, with a decentralised origin point… thus effectively turning the whole implant into a projectile, originating inside of your body.

So… instead of a spaghetti hand, you end up with an “1-use-only missile-hand”! yay!

All that considering that the necessary thickness of the titanium encasing wouldn’t make the implant too big to be doable, and also assuming it would work at containing the explosion.

@Moonman0922

With a thicker ring of a similarly insinuating material integrated into the skin with the spike in the center you could have the spike in the bone and not have a gaping wolverine wound.

Here the issue is… it might work in the middle of the forehead, where the “skin-to-bone” location correlation remains constant…
But once you try to do that in a region where the skin skewers or rotates too much in relation to the bone anchoring point beneath it, then you will either seriously limit your movements or end up with a shear on your skin.

As an experiment, keep your hand flat and make a dot with a pen over your knuckle. Now imagine it goes all the way to your bone, in an obviously straight line. Now clench your fist.
You can see the dot moved forward, but the bone where it should have been connected is still in the same place it were before.

The way bone articulation is “built” makes it very hard (not to say impossible) to afixate anything transdermal there.

The problem here is that despite the fact that we have all the tech necessary for each individual component in this alleged implant, we are still lacking the tech necessary to make it safe (batteries), small enough (encasing and battery again), and most importantly, to make all those pieces come together in a seamless integration with the way human bodies are connected.

For this we would need a material which is strong, lightweight, non-conductive, a-magnetic, flexible, and both porous and smooth. Also would need to be biocompatible.
And that material just does not exist.

It would be much easier to accomplish this by chopping one’s hands off and replacing with a prostethic one.
If only prostethic hands were actually good enough…

On the other hand… what one could actually do is to grow horns (use teflon subdermal implants, then replace them with reef coral ones to make your skull incorporate it… etc…). And those horns could be made long enough to become an actual stun gun, with an implant on top of your head.

Would be dead-on obvious, and most likely to get you shot on sight by the first gun-wielding satan-fearing nutjob that you cross paths with, though…

@Pilgrimsmaster

It’s almost like this whole thread would have been better suited over on their forum

Shame no one said that, right?

[Eyeux]

@Atilla

I’ll invite @Eyeux and co- to a conversation about morality:
Should a transhumanist church postulate about the peaceful application of body mods?

Sounds like a neat topic for a new thread!

Although maybe my views on “morality” would surprise you!

Just like in this thread, my arguments are seldom based in morals.
Every “moral” conclusion I got in this thread was purely a rational conclusion of the best path for the individual, without any moral consideration.

What’s funny is that if you are able to foresee the outcome for enough “steps ahead” of the current situation, then the most egocentric self-beneficial course of action will also be, almost always, the most ethical one.

Supersimpliffed example:
The best rationale for not carrying a weapon is not because “it could hurt people”. But because carrying it increases the odds of hurting yourself way more than would help you.

[Intector]

@Perpetuapolyphemus

Just an idea that occurred to me. Could you create a transdermal implant that delivers an electrical shock when activated?

Sure you can, it’s called "Pacemaker"

[Perpetuapolyphemus]

Thank you for your replies, especially to those who gave helpful advice.

I have been extremely busy with homework, so have not had time to work on any of my personal ideas or projects.

When I have finished school I may have more time to tool around and will read what you’ve written then.

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@Pilgrimsmaster

could I ask, Are you in your early 20’s?

@Perpetuapolyphemus

Late twenties

@Perpetuapolyphemus

I have been extremely busy with homework,

@Perpetuapolyphemus

When I have finished school I may have more time

Are you doing a late degree or are you just a professional student?

Out of interest, did you get your invite to Biohack.me ?
Did you get any responses over there also?