Is the T5577 side of NExT VERY weak?

[RuggyBearLA]

@Eriequiet

The indala stuff is a indication of a borderline bad read, there’s a video where Amal mentions it’s the first thing to start acting up

I made a mistake, so I deleted that post I thought I was getting a good signal through palm, but I wasn’t, and I found the threads saying Indala is generally a bad signal. I finally got a good read and it is actually the HID stuff I cloned to it, so now I’m back to the original quest to get something that will read it and do something interesting. The Redbee reader I ordered should connect to an RPi, so I’ll start there and if that doesn’t work out, I’ll order the xACv2. Thanks for you help!

[Eriequiet]

@RuggyBearLA

I deleted that post

The internet remembers lol

Until you need it that is

I didn’t see resolution so I figured I’d toss my 2 cents out

Speaking of,
Have you made sure to keep an eye on the rotation of implant to the reader?

I reread and noticed it’s in position 1, which can be slightly awkward to present to a wall reader

And consider too that the implant won’t be actually parallel with your arm, which I used to use as a reference… but that was faulty because in my arm being perfectly presented, the implant was off by 15 degrees or so

I could easily see that in bending your arm/hand you and rotating the implant enough to push it past the line of not reading

[RuggyBearLA]

@Eriequiet

can be slightly awkward to present to a wall reader

Based on the Implant Sutra I think it’s position 0, but it really is awkward regardless. Knowing what I know now, I’d have gone for a flex

[Eriequiet]

Sorry idk why I said position 1, I meant 0 you had it right

Flex’s are a bit more involved and trickier to install, and they don’t just magically work a million times better

Don’t sell your next short, it took me a couple weeks of playing to get mine to read, and now I can’t mess it up

And some readers are just crap, it might not even read a flex good

I have a payment flex, that won’t work with 95% of terminals in my area because they are crap

[RuggyBearLA]

@Eriequiet

some readers are just crap, it might not even read a flex good

That’s certainly a possibility, I have to take my ring off and hold it flat to the reader before it takes it, but I can’t help but think that a flex would just be easier to present to readers. I will find something interesting to do with my NExT, but might consider a flexEM specifically for office access. I think it would be great in position 8.

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@RuggyBearLA

I think it would be great in position 8.

8 !?!

8 !?!

Wow, how big are your fingers?

I think you may be underestimating the size if the FlexEM

OR

I am underestimating the size of your fingers

I also think the FlexEM will work really well for what you want to do.
There range is much better than an xSeries due to physics.

But you might be better off looking for another location.

Here is a common option

This thread may be of interest

flexEM positioning and chat

Not really a support question or anything but I’ve just got an email saying my flexEM order is complete. Not only was i exited about that but a shiver also went down my spine thinking about the install (my first flex). My question is how long are they sterile for? I am but a lowly technician and will have to save to be able to get it installed. Just wondered how many people have ordered it and what people are planning on doing with it?

Naming convention for implant locations in the hand

During a discussion on another thread in this forum, it became clear that a naming convention of some sort should be made for the implant locations in the hand. I simply modeled the way dentists talk about teeth in the mouth, and concluded the following should suffice. Multiple chips in one hand Before I get into possible implant locations, I want to first address the idea of implanting multiple chips in the same hand or in close proximity. There a few primary considerations; Keep at least …

[RuggyBearLA]

@Pilgrimsmaster

8 !?!

I could have it wrong, but I thought I read that Amal had one there. I believe that I also read that it will have a bit of a curve when it comes out of the tube and would conform to a finger. By the picture, it’s smaller than a dime, and my finger is wider than a dime, I figure it would work

In other news, I got a card read from ebay today. It reads the prox card from 3 inches, it reads the T5577 rings from 2 inches, it will not read my NExT Hopefully will have better luck with the Redbee when it gets here.

[pac]

@RuggyBearLA

I believe that I also read that it will have a bit of a curve when it comes out of the tube and would conform to a finger.

Nope, the flexEM is like a penny in both size and flexibility. (20mm diameter for the flexEM, 19mm diameter for the penny)

Definitely not recommended to install one in the knuckle of your finger.

[RuggyBearLA]

@pac

the flexEM is like a penny in both size and flexibility.

I’m was a bit confused, because in the product photo at flexEM T5577 - RFID & NFC Chip Implants and Biohacking products it’s clearly smaller than the dime, and the description calls it “semi-flexible”, but I do see that it also says 20mm. So yeah, not going on a finger

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@RuggyBearLA

I could have it wrong, but I thought I read that Amal had one there

Kinda; but It is a FlexNT

[RuggyBearLA]

Today I cloned an EM410x card onto the NExT and have no problems reading that, so it seems like my problem is specific to HID. Sad that I won’t be able to use it for work access, but I’m happy that I’ll be able to use it for other things. On the plus side, EM410x usb keyboard wedges are cheap and plentiful.

[Eriequiet]

Have you tried using your work reader some more?

[RuggyBearLA]

@Eriequiet

Have you tried using your work reader some more?

I haven’t been back to the office so haven’t gotten a chance to try that reader again, but I today I got a Wave ID pcProx reader and while it scans the original card and my T5577 rings from inches away, it does not react to the NExT at any distance or angle.

When programmed to EM410x, even a $5 keyboard wedge from Aliexpress picks up my NExT from a 1/2 inch away, so it seems pretty clear to me that something about HID doesn’t work well with my implant. Sure, I may have cloned it wrong somehow, but I did it the same way to rings and they work, so maybe there’s a trick to cloning HID to the NExT I don’t know about. So far the only thing I currently have access to that will read the NExT in HID mode is the Proxmark when the antenna is directly over the end of the chip and touching my skin, and lf search reports the same output as the source card, so it seems like I probably had it cloned successfully.

If I find another HID-capable reader, I’ll try it again, I think it’s just a no-go for what I have available.

[Eriequiet]

@RuggyBearLA

so it seems pretty clear to me that something about HID doesn’t work well with my implant

Your looking at it wrong,

It’s not that hid mode is weaker on your implant, it’s on the reader side

The reader at work is likely not strong, not tuned super great, or you aren’t finding the sweet spot

Wave ID products have a very nice punch to them

You should also verify your write,
Write the same thing to an Iso card and see if that works… if it does, compare the read data on your proxmark

[RuggyBearLA]

@Eriequiet

You should also verify your write

I’ve mentioned that I’ve cloned this prox card to other chips and they all work, and that the proxmark verifies that my NExT chip reports the same data, I don’t really know how to validate my process or results any more than that.

[Pilgrimsmaster]

@RuggyBearLA

clone a HID Proxcard II onto it

Just throwing this out there "Just in case "

You say HID Proxcard II - Make me think of HID Duo Prox which is a LF & HF Card!

Could it be possible that the readers you are using are “looking” for the HF side.

I know it is unlikely, but just thought we should rule that out 100%
These were my indicators as to why I thought this might be the case

@RuggyBearLA

verify the read, so it technically works…[no reader I have access to registers its existence]

@RuggyBearLA

tried it on 3 card readers

@RuggyBearLA

none of them even acknowledge a chip is near

@RuggyBearLA

tried using the sensor tags to locate a sweet spot, but no joy

Similarity between (Proxcard 2 - Duo Prox)

BUT, then I read this, and realised I probably just wasted my time writing this…damn…and I still am…oh well…I really should stop…maybe after the quote that blows my theory out of the water…

@RuggyBearLA

I have successfully cloned to other T5577 chips (rings, stickers, etc) and used them with this system

But, If you think that is a possibility, then give a hf search a try and/or try your Daignostic card on your reader

If it is running a dual frequency system, you MAY be able to enroll the HF side and have some luck if the HF antenna is better placed

TAKE 2

Also, is it a possibility that you can open up one of the readers to inspect the location of the LF antenna?

Could you / have you tried putting your Diagnostic card on the reader? this will do a couple of things:

• Change the field so that the reader may actually read your NExT ( Obviously not a suitable solution, but answers the question about the readers)

• At the very least, It will also show you the duty cycle, so when you are presenting your NExT, you will see how frequent the read pulses are and therefore how slow / still you need to present your NExT

You may also be able to present your LF xFD in conjunction wirth your Diagnostic Card ( However this may just show the trace of your Diag. card, rather that the readers, I have never tried this myself )

I think my final suggestion would be, if you aren’t already, to swipe across the face of the reader, Very slowly or using your new found knowledge of the duty cycle at a suitable speed

Ok, the last one was not actually my final suggestion, SO… another option, if you think you would get a FlexEM is to buy a cheap T5577 “flex” the same diameter as the FlexEM from AliExpress or elsewhere, and test that on your readers to confirm before buying

I’ll keep thinking on this, but let us all know how you go

[RuggyBearLA]

@Pilgrimsmaster

give a hf search a try

No joy there, but I didn’t expect it to work as we use bog standard ProxCard II
[usb] pm3 → hf search
[!] No known/supported 13.56 MHz tags found

@Pilgrimsmaster

open up one of the readers

Sadly no, my employer is just a tenant, so we don’t own or maintain the equipment, and it’s secured behind smoked glass so I can’t even see what reader they use.

@Pilgrimsmaster

cheap T5577 “flex”

I did get some T5577 coins that look similar to the to the FlexEM, and they do work well on the Wave ID pcProx reader I have here, I’ll try them at the office when I go in again. I’ll take the diag card and xFD as well. The card reader is in a camera-watched elevator, so I can’t spend too much time in front of it, but will try to validate the antenna placement.

I have spent significant time this morning with the Wave ID pcProx reader I have here at home and I have gotten it to occasionally register the NExT in HID mode in one spot when touching the skin over the end of the chip (while it reads t5577 coins, rings, and stickers from a considerable distance). So my NExT is working, but the strength while in HID seems to me to be very subdued, which calls back to my original question. In comparison, in EM410x mode it is read from about 1/2 inch away, so it seems to be stronger in EM401x than HID.

Assuming the coin works as expected I’ll likely get a FlexEM to be dedicated to work access, and use the NExT for home projects in EM410x mode.

[ItaBeAight]

@RuggyBearLA

Assuming the coin works as expected I’ll likely get a FlexEM to be dedicated to work access

I’ve experienced the same issue with my NExT on the HID readers at work. With cameras on all of the readers, I needed something that would be quick and inconspicuous. I used the T5577 pvc tokens, the range compared to the company issued badge was unnoticeable. In my case they worked so well I implanted them into the cuff of my work shirts until I got my FlexEM installed.

[RuggyBearLA]

@ItaBeAight

implanted them into the cuff of my work shirts

That’s genius!

[Eriequiet]

I suggested that @KaiCastledine KSEC, make a little slit pocket in the wrists of their hoodies for the same thing