Should I make more xGLO

[amal]

So in the past I’ve made my position fairly clear about the xGLO and not wanting to make something that is ultimately very dangerous if it ever broke inside someone… the risks of which I think most people don’t really fully understand, especially when it comes to long-term effects for people who happen to be a bit younger if and when they might have a breakage incident. If you’re 75 and put one in and it breaks, and you get cancer at 82, then I guess your chance of getting cancer from that was just as good as anything else statistically speaking. But if you’re 25 and it breaks at 30, then the potential disaster looms larger earlier… and I’m not sure people in general can quite grasp how they might feel getting cancer at 50 when they are 25.

I know that sounds extremely agist… I’m just creeping up there in age myself and the way I view risk has dramatically changed. If I was paying a hefty price for something now that I did when I was 25 I’d feel pretty crap about it.

All that said, I’ve been seeing chatter on the discord and have quite a few emails and DMs asking me about it… I got another one today… hence my poll here.

Should I make more xGLO?

• Adults can decide themselves
• It’s not ethical, don’t do it.

[darthdomo]

While I agree with and voted for the “Adults can decide themselves” opinion, especially with inferior products having been on the market, this immediately popped in my mind (hoping some folks get the reference )

I would personally never implant one, the risk is far too high for me. However, the same people who want one aren’t going to be talked out of it in my opinion, and I feel it would be better for them to get a product from you which is relatively safer compared to other options (although again, very relative, still not safe).

The firefly won’t be the last attempt at a tritium implant IMO, and we saw what happened with that. Someone is going to come along at some point and make one for sale. It’s highly unlikely, although not impossible, that that person would match the level of care and consideration you put in your products.

Regardless of what you decide to do, or how the poll turns out, I trust your ethics and decision making on this, and would never want you to compromise on what you feel is right, no matter the reason. Your care is the reason why this community can exist today as it does

[anon3825968]

Educated, rational adults can decide for themselves. Unfortunately, 95% of the population don’t qualify. If they did, we wouldn’t need things like that:

You need to protect your customers against their own stupidity. If you don’t and they get hurt, it becomes your liability, sadly.

Worse, if you do make an xGLO2 and someone gets hurts, the very fact that you posted this poll makes it very easy for a lawyer to prove that you willfully sold a product you knew to be dangerous.

Hence, don’t.

[Eriequiet]

As much as I think it would be poetic for me to get one, given I work with tritium ampules

It’s just not bright enough to be worth it, I’m not even happy with tritium when it’s not under flesh

In addition, you clearly aren’t happy with it… and I think it would eat at you making something you don’t support

Also it could theoretically damage brand or image perception

… maybe work on a capsule filled with strontium alluminate?

[Backpackingvet]

If you make them, I will buy some.

If you don’t make them, I will not buy some.

[pac]

I feel like you made the right choice to discontinue making them for the safety of the community.

[Devilclarke]

Honestly I love mine and I know quite a few people who want them. I would ask if you have ever had one break?

It seems to me that everyone who has one has put them in locations that aren’t particularly exposed.

I think the whole idea of biohacking is body autonomy right so in that case I would fully say people who want to install them should be allowed to. Obviously copious amounts of warnings on the website would be a good thing but other than that it is what it is.

My biggest worry is one day someone sees the “demand” for an xglo and decides there going to make something and sell it and it will be sub par I.e. firefly for example

All that said at the end of the day the decision is yours and yours alone. If you decide to or not I think you made the right decision for you.

[Pilgrimsmaster]

Well it is a Dangerous Thing…
however Dangerous Things Ltd. is an ironic use of the term.

I chose not to vote, as I agree with Rosco.

@anon3825968

adults can decide for themselves. Unfortunately, 95% of the population don’t qualify.

People are stupid! If things go wrong they also won’t think twice about pointing the finger at you. Ignoring the fact that there are three fingers pointing back at themselves

I don’t know the legal ins and outs of The USofA , but I know you fuckers love to sue.

To even consider making and selling xGLOs, you would want to be legally watertight, have waivers signed and I imagine the xGLOs would also need to be FDA approved, and I would not think that would be possible, and if it was, it would likely be cost prohibitive.

or

sell them as simply “Tritium vials” not in a syringe or any mention of implantation.

(but look at the DT website, almost everything on there is for implanting, so I doubt this would be a legal defense)

I would say however:

Could you sleep at night knowing a product you sold had the potential to kill?
What’s stopping them putting this in their palm etc just because the can and want to?
What age restriction is there? can this be managed?
Could an adult buy this for a child?
There are “adults” that we see that are still too immature to install “safe” implants sensibly.
We all remember an over eager 13 year old on here that was fixated on a getting a Spark, imagine if that 13yo just bought the xGLO and installed it, and then it broke…

I totally understand people wanting something, and not able to get it from anywhere. It would be frustrating…

“Ask yourselves why nobody else makes or sells these.”

The best place to ask for this is here!
The best person to ask is you! (Amal)
But
I think these requestors are well intentioned, but it is a selfish request that will affect more than their own lives if things go wrong.

• They potentially loose their life, (As long as they are made aware of the risks; who cares, their choice.)
• You potentially loose your business/income etc
• We loose the best and safest place for buying our implants

Personally, I don’t think it is worth it.

We are all about body autonomy here, that is making decisions about our own bodies and lives.
But this decision is more than that, it affects you and your family.

You (Amal) as one of the few adults who can make his own sensible informed decision, and you (Amal) as the person this affects the most. in fact, the ONLY person this truly affects.

The decision is yours.

[Safear]

I voted for “It’s not ethical, don’t do it.” and yet I think I would get one if they’d come back.
Maybe selling them privately on request instead of in the shop would be an option? That way only people that already know their way around the biohacking world would be able to get their hands on one, eliminating the risk of some unaware person buying one.

[Zwack]

I voted ”Not Ethical" because I don’t want to see you do this for many reasons.

However most of them have nothing to do with it being “unethical”.

• You obviously have misgivings about making implantable Tritium glowy things.

• Tritium is regulated in the US and this would probably not be considered a legal use.

brief summary

Due to U.S. regulations regarding radioactive substances, all of the above items can be legally sold in the U.S., as the manufacturers of such products require special licensing in order to integrate tritium into their products. The exception is for products that are regarded as having a “frivolous” use such as glow keychain fobs.
From here.

• As a former radiation worker in a Health Physics department I would never consider deliberately embedding Tritium vials in myself.

• I have seen the difference that treating sources with respect, or not, makes to recorded lifetime doses. (Almost everyone with a very high dose at the lab either had cancer or was already dead).

• While I trust you to make the safest version you can, I don’t trust others to treat them appropriately.

• Have you considered using a standard glow pigment with an RFID powered UV led embedded at one end? This might be a safer alternative. (Or not, I am a bit wary of a UV source inside the body)

[Pilgrimsmaster]

Just adding in some more info

tritium radioluminescence.

LED/glowing microchip?

This is so so cool! A few safety questions: Is there any possibility this might trip up airport security? I’m guessing the coating takes care of all the radiation and it’d be utterly undetectable. If I got in a car accident and the vial broke, how dangerous is this amount of tritium floating around my body? Are we talking “just a few xrays’ worth” or “almost guaranteed cancer” levels here?

[Coma]

I would definitely not install Tritium, as I’m pretty scared of radiation (in unhealthy doses)… I have some faint memories of Tchernobyl, and that definitely had quite an impression on my childhood.

But still, I totally love glowy stuff. So, maaaybe it’s a nice idea to just look for alternatives? I already threw this Super Lumi-Nova-Stuff in here some times, and though I have no idea how safe it is, it sounds pretty okay for me. Maybe some resin filled with that, in a DT-xSeries-Implant would be some sort of “safe-xGLO” or whatever.
I have experience with glow in the dark stuff below skin for a bit more than one year now, and I am totally happy with the results. Yes, it’s invisible in daylight, but it totally shines in dark rooms. Would be okay for me!

[yeka]

@anon3825968

you willfully sold a product you knew to be dangerous.

Hence, don’t.

The company name is no joke.This stuff is dangerous, but done as safe as possible.

I’m with darthdomo, someone will make a worse xGLO some day and I’d probably buy it.

@pac

safety of the community.

Yeah I see that in the long run it would be better for the company & biohacking community if noone gets cancer from their grinds.

@Zwack

While I trust you to make the safest version you can, I don’t trust others to treat them appropriately.

Why do you care if I die because of my own choices? Surely it’s not worth it if it breaks… but how risky is it?
If I dont smoke and get an xGLO I’m at less risk than others I guess.

[Safear]

@Coma

maaaybe it’s a nice idea to just look for alternatives?

I’d be down with an alternative and I would definitely prefer it over tritium.
Actually the only reason why I would consider an xGLO is that I want an implant that glows without having to hold a phone or reader to it. Charging it with a phone is ok though as long as it glows for at least a few minutes afterwards.

[Coma]

@Safear

Charging it with a phone is ok though as long as it glows for at least a few minutes afterwards.

If I want to show off my glowy silicone (and people are afraid to walk into a pitch black room with me^^), I just charge it for a few seconds (!) with a cheap UV-flashlight. After that, it’s very visible even in broad daylight.
And another plus for the SuperLuminova - it’s available in a lot of different colours. Blue glowy, pink glowy, orange or green… or maybe even several in one implant! Side note - no, I do not get paid by them, I just love the idea
I never really understood that firefly / xGLO-thing - it’s just one colour, it gets weaker over time (yes, I like to have permanent mods, so a half-life of 12 years isn’t that nice) and it potentially gives you cancer. Even if I ignore the health risks, it’s still not looking that spectacular, at least judging from the pictures I’ve seen.

[Safear]

@Coma

SuperLuminova

Is that what Steve used for your silicone implant?

@Coma

it gets weaker over time

Well phosphorescent pigments too become “tired” over the years if I remember correctly. And the removal and replacement of an x-Series is easier then silicone implants.

@Coma

it potentially gives you cancer

That’s the huge problem

I am also a little skeptical about phosphorescent pigments suspended in a silicone implant like Steve makes them and you have one. I would prefer a highly with phosphorescent pigments enriched resin inside an x-Series capsule. You still got the possibility of it breaking and it would probably be pretty nasty too, but at least it won’t be as bad as tritium I guess.

[Az_F]

This kinda reopens the debate about implanting devices with batteries… If this is fine then why not an LED with a coin cell and a wireless charging circuit? (I have made one, totally feasible with 24h+ of light for each charge). You could bring that same argument “Adults can decide themselves” (I voted for this btw).

[Devilclarke]

Again with things like batteries … I understand the risk of a battery (not lipo or liion that is) and wouldn’t do it but a double sealed glass vial of tritium in a squish (less exposed) part of my body yeah why not

[Safear]

@Devilclarke

but a double sealed glass vial in a squish (less exposed) part of my body yeah why not

You mean the xGLO?

[Devilclarke]

Yeah