I consider some of what you listed as forms of blackmail, which is still force
Prohibiting someone from doing anything unless they give in to your demands, is force
Thatâs the âahah Iâm not touching youâ game, and itâs bullshit
We had previous discussions about an employer trying to force a employee to have his implants removed
An employer doesnât have unlimited ability to fire employees
I think an employer trying to fire an employer for medical is wrong
What if a christian company fired someone for an abortion, I see no difference to a hospital firing someone for smoking off property and company hours
Well quite. I should have said "My rules as an employer within the limits of the law".
Implants donât hurt anybody, and the answer to overreaching employers is having laws passed that prevent them from enacting stupid rules. Same for barefooting or wearing a mohawk.
But getting a law passed that prevents an employer from requiring you to get a known public health benefit like the COVID vaccine? Why, sure, you can try, but good luck with that.
Tell that to âright to workâ states. There are very few protected categories that an employer canât use as reasons for firing someone.
Can an employer fire an employee for reducing productivity? If they spread some debilitating disease among the other employees is that grounds for firing them?
See I take a hard line stance on the ânormalâ vaccines I.e. the ones children are offered when growing up. Personally I feel that refusing to have your child vaccinated against things like MMR should be considered child abuse.
I saw 2 children almost die of measles because there parents believed some bullshit. I fully agree body autonomy should be foremost but this should have been stopped by a doctor or someone who knows what there talking about.
My children canât take peanuts to school because x is allergic but y is unvaccinated (through choice) and thats fine⊠no sorry it aint.
Agreed. All I said is that you should bear the societal consequences.
The problem I see today is that people who refuse the COVID vaccine are free to roam around. But thatâs fast changing: several major companies like Facebook or Google have decided to require proof of vaccination for continued employment, and thatâs a damn good thing.
I recognize that you see that as a hidden form of coercion And to a certain extent, it is. But the ultimate choice is yours.
See I do worry about that to. With a relatively new vaccine itâs a bit different (obviously all vaccines where new at one time) I think with the covid vaccine unless you work say in healthcare it shouldnât be enforced. However there should be a higher duty of care on companies to make the work place for those people who are at higher risk of covid. I.e. the company having to make sure there work place was âsafeâ
Iâll admit thatâs a bit of a grey area, they arenât really forcing you to undergo a procedureâŠ
But they are attempting to limit bodily autonomy
The argument can be made for drugs, as they are illegal, but itâs a bit of a shallow argument
But how would you feel if it was caffeine they were screening for? Does that fall under âemployers can do what they wantâ ?
Man this is some interesting conversation.
Iâll say that we believe in body autonomy, for sure. We also believe in doing no harm. I think be free and secure in yourself, be free to do whatever the heck you want with your life - itâs your life! But with the caveat of âas long as it does no harm to others.â
The perspectives themselves are just flat out wrong. We are all human beings. This whole argument is just stupid. We should treat other human beings like human beings and we donât. Thereâs no need to be adversarial. Thereâs no need to think of someone who has a different perspective to you as âthe otherâ or âthe enemy.â Itâs far too common and only made worse by social media algorithms creating echo chambers.
We (our system) donât think many drugs are inherently bad - most of the âillegalityâ of many drugs is because of strongarm tactics by governments in the latter part of the 20th century, and not based on any evidence of danger from the drugs. Yes, there are bad drugs out there. Yes marijuana can cause impairment and there can be a chance of addiction, but tobacco and alcohol are far more toxic and dangerous drugs and kill so many more people across the world both directly and indirectly, and they are perfectly legal with very minor and poorly regulated restrictions. Most of the âlawsâ around this stuff is just bullshit made up by angry conservative people 40 years ago.
The argument of the church maybe wanting to ensure that you have Christian values if you are working with them I think is valid. The church is a religious institution as are many others, and religious institutions are protected as a universal human right. Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: âEveryone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.â In addition if you are working for a religious institution itâs possible that you would be in a position where you are in a way representing them somehow, and I think itâs fine if they want to be sure that you share their views and beliefs.
The right way to go about these issues is not to say âHey I have a right to my body and you canât make me take that drug testâ or âHey Iâm youâre employer and I have right to demand you remove those implants or Iâm going to fire youâ - thatâs adversarial. Sit down and have a conversation with the person, as human beings. Donât attack them. Donât get defensive. Have a reasonable conversation and treat them as youâd want them to treat you. Anything less is dissappointing.
Be excellent to each other, in all things. Please.
~ Jamie
âI donât understand why people, why every fucking person is so bad to each other so fuckin often. It doesnât make sense to me.
Judgement. Control. All that, the whole spectrum!â
We live on a mote of dust, suspended in a sunbeam. Be excellent to each other
If people had opportunities to become better educated instead of running the rat race of day-to-day survival, they would be able to make the cost-benefits analysis like you did and would inevitably take one of the vaccines supported by the vast majority of the scientific community. If not for themselves then at least for their elderly friends and family who will surely die. The fact that theyâre not making that decision inherently proves that they are not of sound mind to make that call. The next step is to educate them about it (which prolific public outreach campaigns are attempting to do). Yet they still kick their legs like an infant and scream âdonât tell me what to do!â, and proceed to blindly follow the dictates of snake oil salesman peddling ivermectin and vitamin D/C supplements.
At that point, they must be forced. This isnât out of the blue government overreach. This is a response to repeated denial of the facts. Antivaxxers have repeatedly taken direct action to harm themselves and others, which elevates this to the level of a mandate to protect everyone else from them. If there is a reservoir population of covid it will mutate and we will not be able to eradicate it, and it will become annual like the flu, but lethal.
The slippery slope argument is invalid because for the next big issue of government overreach weâll be starting at the top of a new slide, and the same stupid transgressions will need to play out again in full before mandates occur.
And to a certain extent, it is. But the ultimate choice is yours.
