The anti🚫-derailment🚃 & thread🧵 hijacking🔫 thread🧵 ⁉

Coma · January 18, 2022, 5:07pm

Of course! This wasn’t really what I meant… there are lots of bad things happening, and it’s definitely not a good idea to just deny them or kinda mask them out. We have to know what’s going wrong, so we can try to do better, to change course, like you said.
But - I just take one random example here - I can definitely cry about the amount of rainforest destroyed, it is indeed a topic that can bring me to tears, and I feel bad and helpless afterwards. Or I can take a look at what other people do to protect it, and if there is a way I can support that. It might be a tiny thing, the proverbial drop of water on a stone, but a) I’ll feel less helpless and b) if enough people do something, it has an effect. I’m not naive, I know lots of people do terrible stuff, but me crying about that changes nothing at all, except for my mood - and not to the better. I had to do a lot with animal rights in my youth, all the bad stuff - fur industry, animal cruelty, terrible pictures of animal transports, bullfighting, all that stuff, and it made me sick. It made me hate mankind and myself. And it didn’t change anything at all… This was back in the 90s. By now, I kinda switched my focus to being more solution-oriented and try to do the little things I can do to make it a little bit better - and funny enough, I think lots of people had that idea, for some things have changed to the better since the 90s. Not all, not even enough, but at least a bit.
I think we have no chance to become AI, “cyborgs”, machines or anything similar yet, and so we should to what we - as humans - can do. And not be angry about what we can’t.

I have a stupid question about that - I’m fine with people being able to change their gender or to use a pronoun or anything that feels more fitting, but… why is “gender” itself necessarily bad? I am incredibly happy to be a woman. I’m fine with anyone who’s not, and who decides to be a man instead, or anything in between, but that doesn’t make “gender” itself a bad thing, or does it? I think I’m not getting the point yet…

Satur9 · January 18, 2022, 5:46pm

The key modifier here being little. Solving the problems in our society won’t be done by millions of people making minor changes to their daily routines. That’s a smokescreen put in place by bad actors to make us complacent. We feel like we’re doing something, but we’re actually just sitting by as they pursue their agendas.

I can manage my mental health to a degree where I can hate humanity, while redirecting that energy towards solving the problems that poison us.

I disagree. I don’t know if you’ve noticed but I’m full speed ahead in developing the future. The only thing limiting our ability to augment ourselves right now is capital. Technology is at an amazing point.

Eyeux already said. Defining differences between genders and races in a societal context only serves to elevate one group at the cost of another. You’ve shared thoughts like this before, when you explained that you’re a strong independent woman who can fend for herself. Despite your strength (and ignoring the fact that there are women with a different constitution than you) you’re still a woman in our society.

That means you have artificially imposed disadvantages when compared side by side with a man. You make less money for the same work, the healthcare and regulatory structures don’t adequately address your gender’s unique needs, and socially you have diminished status (at least in the eyes of those who cling to the old ways).

The idea is to work towards a world where these structures that impose disadvantages on some are abolished. We’re not suggesting that everyone should be androgynous, emotionless grey husks (despite what the slippery slope people think). You can be a woman with feminine attributes. You just shouldn’t be punished for it.

Zwack · January 18, 2022, 10:57pm

It isn’t. But like Race, Sexuality, Religion, Handedness,… It can be used as grounds for discrimination.

The concept of getting rid of gender to reduce discrimination is laudable, but in some cases will be replaced by discrimination against perceived gender. So much better.

As for taking small actions yourself, that can be powerful when many people take the same small actions. As an example look at the changes to Venice when the pandemic first hit. Water quality improved, wildlife returned, and all because of people individually staying at home.

Eyeux · January 18, 2022, 11:28pm

Damn. I do like this whole debate, but am extremely short on time today! >.<

So will focus on this point:

Lets start with: “Gender” is not inherently bad.

But Gender, exactly like Race, is something used worldwide to force people into submission and to create a veiled “caste” system.

Therefore, just like anything which can cause so much harm, it’s purpose must be offset by it’s capacity to cause good.

So let’s think what good “gender” brings us??

Not joking, I cannot think a single item which is still valid on the modern world.

So let’s crawl a little bit deeper into this rabbit role:
What purpose, apart from control, does “gender” still has?

Again, I cannot list anything.

Even when you say:

Tat is a great thing! but I bet what makes you happy would still be there even if we remove “gender” from the equation.

I mean, physiology is unrelated to gender.
Social role is also unrelated to gender.
How people read you is, again, also unrelated to gender.
Who feels attracted to you… again, unrelated to gender. (Although here we have gender fucking things up a lot. such as Homophobia which happens when someone feels attracted by a specific physiology which is associated to a “gender they are not supposed to like”)

So in short:

Gender is not a “bad” thing per se.
It’s just an outdated concept which has no purpose to continue existing.
but since it’s abused for nefarious ends, should be abolished.

Also, 100% this:

Satur9 · January 19, 2022, 12:15am

Only collectively though. It wasn’t because many people unilaterally decided to stay home of their own volition for the good of the canals. It was because of a societal pressure for everyone to stay home as a group. Also, improving the environment wasn’t the motivation here for anyone involved. If it had been they could have done more. But it would have been wholly remarkable if everyone had decided to make dramatic personal behavioral changes solely for the sake of the cities ecosystem.

Zwack · January 19, 2022, 12:33am

My point was that simple, individual changes on a large scale CAN have a significant impact.

ODaily · January 19, 2022, 3:32am

I’ll readily admit that I don’t understand the issue with gender as a spectrum. Mostly cause I have a mindset that doesn’t want anyone in my business, and I respect that as a two way street.

But, I got to point this out. The discussion came to point for me today, when I saw this from 2004.

I remember when this was a BIG DAMN DEAL.
Now it’s totally normal.
I’d like to think that we’re improving the human condition a little bit, generation by generation.

My Great-Grandmother was a flaming racist. My Grandmother was less so, at least in public. I don’t think of my Mother that way, but a cautious understanding of race problems is there. My nieces and nephews couldn’t care less about it.

For that reason, I choose to have hope for us.

Aoxhwjfoavdlhsvfpzha · January 19, 2022, 5:16am

Are the DT Club stars starfish now? Is that a new change, or have I somehow missed it?

A little starfish buddy may be worth subscribing for alone…

Pilgrimsmaster · January 19, 2022, 5:22am

Geez, what took you so long? It’s been like that for 18 mins At least !!!

It really is, We will see you over there

Eriequiet · January 19, 2022, 5:45am

My 2 cents on the gender stuff since this a a fruitful and chill conversation

I think I take a bit of the stance that focusing and spending time on what seperate us, causes separation

It’s obviously a rock and hard place, because, I’m fully supportive of the idea of being proud of who you are and what makes you you

But I think society is taking it a bit too far the other way, borderline tokenizing people be it race or religion or gender or orientation…

Also, it may not be politically correct, but I feel like it’s almost a fad to the younger generations, and it’s their generations form of rebellion to almost actively create some niche non typical identity, just to be that much more unique

I’m not saying that it’s not real… but there are definitely people who just want a gold star for being different

But I try to live by the rule of “don’t be a dick”
So if someone asks me to refer to them as ____ sure, not like I’m going to convince them otherwise, nor would there be a point

But I buck the notion that I need to actively seek out and recognize someone’s uniqueness, unless it pertains to something relevant

Idk, I’m just a white cis male… maybe I just don’t get it

My opinion is worth what you paid to read it

Eyeux · January 19, 2022, 11:28am

Yeah, quite happy we’re achieving this!!

Absolutely agree!!

Me too!
The tricky bit here is… because we’re so immersed in a dualist gender-based world we would naturally assume that abolishing gender means someone would not be able to be proud of what they are…
But that’s not the case. Gender is not what defines you. If we abolish gender, then new concepts would come into it’s place, so you would still be able to be proud of that.

What’s the difference then?
Mostly that you would be able to choose/discover/define who you are and what in that makes you proud of being you, regardless of how you were born.

The more we make a group proud of something either you were born with or you were not… then we are automatically punishing the ones who were not. And most often than not, such pride is empty.

As an educationally reductionist example:

let’s assume a society where men are superior to women, and in that society men are supposed to be the providers of the family. Therefore, men who work hard and are able to provide to their families are considered superior citizens/people/etc.

John lives there.
John works very hard to provide a nice house, meals and vacations for his family.
John wakes up, looks at the blue skies and exclaims: “I am proud of being a man!”.

In this scenario, is John really proud of having a slag of meat hanging between his legs? No. John is proud of being a hard worker. a Provider.

So let’s wipe gender out of this equation:

Now our society is one where people who work hard and are able to provide to their families are considered superior citizens/people/etc.

John lives there.
John works very hard to provide a nice house, meals and vacations for his family.
John wakes up, looks at the blue skies and exclaims: “I am proud of being a provider!”.

The core difference here is that…
if Julie, a woman, would really like to be a provider herself… on the first scenario she would not be accepted just because of her physiology. No matter how good she is at it.
While on the second scenario she can be as happy and proud as John.

Likewise, if John really wanted to be a stay-at-home Dad, he would be considered a second class citizen in scenario 1, whereas he would be able to be happy and proud on scenario 2.

ps: yes, this is a very reductionist example and there is still a lot potentially wrong with this alleged society. I’m intentionally taking an TFP approach to it because it’s the approach for a lot who can’t see how we could remove gender of the equation. Far from any personal opinion here.

Also:

Your opinion does not need to match mine to be worth something.
Arguably, a different opinion is worth more since it’s the only one which can help me evolve.

Dismissing opposing Ideas is a sure road to intellectual stagnancy.
(but yeah, I get why of your disclaimer.) =P

Coma · January 19, 2022, 3:33pm

Hmmmm… I kinda still disagree a bit, though I understand the idea (at least I hope so ).
Different genders exist - and yes, they are used to treat people like shit, because there are always people who say men are superior, women are superior or anything else is inferior. That’s stupid shit we should definitely get rid of. Same with racism. Obviously.
But… instead of “removing” gender or skin colours, wouldn’t it be better to “educate” people not to treat others like shit? I mean, for example, different skin colours exist. I am pale as fuck even for the area I live in, and my sis-in-law is half-mosambican, so she is a lot darker. Her father is really, really dark. So, I recognize different colours, and it would be totally ridiculous to say “noo, there are no different skin colours, we’re all the same”. Point is, the colour of our skin doesn’t make us superior or inferior to anyone else, at least in my opinion. So, while I still see differences, it doesn’t mean there is a different “quality” or whatever.
As a woman, yes, I might still earn less money than I should, just because I’m a woman. But the problem here is not me being a woman, but women being paid less! So I think that’s the point we should change… keep all the genders, men, women and anything in between, and just “remove” the unfairness that’s the actual problem. As well as “accepting” that there are tons of different cultures, skin colours, hair colours, eye colours and millions of other things that make us all quite a diverse bunch, without any of them making us “better” or “worse” than anybody else.

And to be honest - people will treat others like shit. If it’s not because of the race, the gender or the language they speak, they’ll find something else. I’m very “privileged” (I hate that word, to be honest…), I was lucky in the big birth lottery, and I am aware of that - and still, people treated me like shit a lot. So I’m afraid if you “remove” gender, they’ll find something else…

I just have to quote this, because it is very important for me to state that I feel in no way punished to be a woman. And yes, that’s - at least partly - because I live in a country where women have many rights, lots of safety and a less drastic pay gap. And again, my solution would be to strengthen female rights where still needed, and not to get rid of femininity.
I actually have some advantages of being a woman - people see me as less threatening, I can walk the streets at night without making other women afraid of me, and I can flirt as much as I like without anyone calling me sexist. That’s a privilege few men can enjoy…

oh, little edit (seems like I’m still not getting it^^):

But if scenario two -

still says that providers are superior, than John would not be superior as a stay-at-home Dad, or am I wrong? The only difference is that Julie can be a happy provider or an “inferior” stay-at-homie and John as well a happy provider or an inferior stay-at-homie in scenario 2, while in scenario 1 John is the superior male, at least as long as he “provides”, and Julie the inferior female no matter what she does. So in one scenario, their “superiority” is based on gender while in the other scenario, it’s based on their decision of working / not working (or rather, staying at home, caring for it). So… isn’t this a sexist scenario vs. a pretty brutal capitalist one? I think I’d dislike both (and both are actually happening at the same time, currently)

Satur9 · January 19, 2022, 4:15pm

I think you might be getting too wrapped up in the “abolish gender” wording. There’s no need to get defensive about remaining who you are. Nobody can change that. You can still be a woman. My original point was that spectrumizing gender will create such a diversity of identities that it will no longer be “men vs women”, it will be “reasonable people vs bigots” and we’ll see some actual change. I talk with men often who aren’t consciously sexist, but the way they live their lives reinforces the patriarchy. Create the conditions where those morally ambiguous people have to consciously pick a side, and then we’ll see real positive change.

Eyeux · January 19, 2022, 4:18pm

I think this is a very good point to pick on. Gender and “Skin colour” are not akin.

We cannot just “deny” a physiological trait. Actually, it would be quite dangerous to do so even from a medical point of view.

But gender is not a physiological trait.

Very simple table:

Physiological Trait ------ Genetics ------- Social Abstraction

Skin colour ---------------- heritage ----------- Race
Genital organs ----------- XY / XX ------------ Gender

Just like we should not ignore skin colour, we should not ignore Genital organs. You will feel aroused by what you like.

We should also not ignore our genetics, since this is actually medically important.

But the main point here is that just like we should not throw a “Racial burden/bias” on someone because of their skin colour,

Then we should also not throw a “Gender role burden/bias” on someone just because of which genitals they have/had.

Gender is akin to Race.
Skin colour is akin to Genitals.

I can use modern medicine, or have a genetic condition which makes my genitals mismatch my “gender”.
Just like I can use modern medicine, or have a genetic condition which makes my skin colour mismatch my “race” (Michael Jackson? Albinos?)

So… why should they be correlated?

Again, I see a slight different point there.

I don’t think you earn less because you are a woman. You earn less because society places you into an inferior caste: Woman.

So if we abolish the concept of gender we would also abolish the means of creating this societal divide, which would make you and another man ave to belong to the same social caste, which would make it so that you both should be paid the same.

Totally agree!
But all of those traits you’re talking about are Physiological traits.

Gender is not physiology: it’s a social abstraction.

Yeah, I left a ps saying there were still issues with that example. XD And it’s not a comparison between “current world” vs “perfect world”. It’s just an exercise on how you can remove gender from the equation even coming from a TFP (right wing) mindset.

Also the point there is that assuming we would always create castes and such (because we as a species are still at our infancy), then at least we can make it so that everyone has the same opportunities.

Tying superior attributes to something you either are born with or not is just… unfair.

Coma · January 19, 2022, 5:06pm

Okay, so I finally get that point! Thanks
But if “woman” is the gender to abolish, what am I? A human being with female genitals? A human being with two X chromosomes? It… doesn’t feel like that. It’s down to biology, I get that, but I feel like a woman not only because I have female genitals. I feel like it because I have some traits that are - traditionally, yes - associated with being a woman. I guess that’s what makes me cis-gender, isn’t it? That the way I feel inside matches my genitals, in a way…

Yeah, and instead of removing the whole caste (and to be honest, it’s not society that places me in there - I voluntarily jump into that caste^^), I think we should remove the “inferior” People will always think in castes (in Germany, we say “Schubladendenken” - “drawer thinking” ) - so, removing one caste will create another. And putting people in some sort of categories isn’t neccessarily bad, as long as there is no superiority / inferiority and as long as you’re willing to change your mind once you get to know someone. I work in retail, and I see customers for the first time ever and have to help them find what they need - and more important, I need to instantly find out how to talk to them. What kind of behaviour is fitting, can I be a bit more easy-going or do I have to be very formal, all of that, and that’s because I look at someone and have a rough idea about that person. I can be (very) wrong, of course, and then I’ll apologize and adapt.

Hmmm… I could have used several subcultures as well for this example
But I get what you mean. Physiology is, to some degree at least, something that just “happens” to us.

But that doesn’t make it any less real, or does it (serious question, not rhetorical^^)?
Being homo-, hetero-, bi- or asexual isn’t physiology as well, and yet, those concepts exist and are important for people. And important for society, so it can recognize the “different”, the “other”, and integrate it into a more tolerant society, at best? Dunno… but there has to be dialogue, dynamics, at least - and that’s maybe only possible if you perceive something as “different”.

Yeeees, I know
But still - as long as the equation divides people into superior and inferior, there is a problem. No matter if the division is done based on skin colour, sex, gender, job, amount of bodymods or implanted chips, clothing style or music you listen to.

That’s true. It’s pure social darwinism, in a way…
But it’s the way it goes, at least currently - some exaggerated examples? You can be born in a country that is destroyed by a drought, not knowing how to survive, or you can be born in a comfy villa, silver spoon in your mouth. You can be born with a whole, healthy body - or not. You can have parents that care for you, or not. You can have chances, or, sadly, not. And society will inevitably put you into a “fitting” caste…

Eyeux · January 19, 2022, 6:10pm

I agree with you.
It doesn’t feel like that. Because it is not like tat. You are more, much more, than your genes or your genitals!

But to answer your question, I need first to ask you What is it that “being a Woman” means to you?
Because the answer you give me is exactly what will be the answer to your question.

I mean… clearly “being a woman”, for you, is much more than just your genitals or genes. So is “being you”

I would go one step beyond.

I don’t read “cis-gender” as “identifying withh thhe gender you were born”. I read it almost like you just put it:

Being cis-gender is when “what you Identify the role you have to play in this life matches the social role which traditional society want you to perform, based on which genitals you were born with”.

And that is great. And why you are happy as things are.

We need people doing the same stuff you want to do. mostly because we need people doing everything!

The problem is when people are forced into those roles even if they don’t want it. even worst while, at the same time, others are not allowed into such roles even if they wuold happily swap places.

Also… I’m literally being dragged away now, but am only halfway your post!!

Will be back later with more comments!! ^^

Coma · January 19, 2022, 7:34pm

That’s a nice question… thank you
Thing is, I’m a lazy person, so I kinda like to be able to put it into small, simple words - woman is one of them, but… I think what I mean with that might be different from what another person thinks about it. And yeah, it’s just one aspect of me, and maybe not even the most important one.

I totally agree with you on that! But like I said, this doesn’t only apply to gender… there are so many social roles, and almost every single one of them is one someone’s forced into. The “soft, vulnerable” woman… the “strong, independent” woman… the man that’s able to “provide” for his family (was in your example, but is still pretty frequent in present times)… the “freak”, the “caring parent”, the “dumbass” or the “highly talented”, and thousands of other stereotypes we’re all categorized as. It creates a lot of pain, and that’s not a good thing.
And I understand that this might be even worse when it’s about very private things (like gender or sexual orientation). Or when you have to fear for your life because of that.
I think it’s sometimes a good idea to use humour to work with those clichées, but that’s obviously only possible when you’re neither fearing for your life nor being deeply hurt.

Maybe I’ll not have the time to answer today, but I’m very happy about this conversation - I feel like I’m understanding stuff a bit better, thanks for taking your time - and as usual, a really nice discourse here

mrln · January 19, 2022, 8:55pm

Satur9 · January 19, 2022, 9:24pm

You’re certain that the diagnostic card you’re using works? The number of turns on the antenna leads me to believe it’s LF. It’s possible that the diagnostic card LF LED got fried by a Qi charger or other whacky bullshit you have in your lab. Does the fob read with your phone?

Pilgrimsmaster · January 19, 2022, 9:29pm

I do actually have a couple of them, I am out at the moment but I’ll get back to you shortly to confirm my thoughts below

I’m pretty sure the one you have there is LF (EM I think)
I got that at the same time as a Rothult knock off so I had an HF equivalent well…

Here are my purchase links

LF

NZ$ 14.89 23%OFF | New-Invisible Hidden RFID Free Opening Intelligent Sensor Cabinet Lock Locker Wardrobe Shoe Cabinet Drawer Door Lock Electroni

HF

NZ$ 11.64 5%OFF | Smart Electronic Hidden Cabinet Lock No Hole Easy Installation Furniture Locker Wardrobe Shoe Cabinet Drawer Door Lock