The dream Chip (keeping it close to achievable, though)

Lounge
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I’ve been thinking around and realised we are almost to the point where an “universal access implant” could be achieved…

So thought of sharing my view on what is my “dream implant” at the moment, In hope others would either share enough expertise and interest that this might even become an actual DT product, or we just start sharing our implant daydreams for fun.
(In which case, given how much we’re prone to see a raise in crazy 2077’s implant Ideas, I’m happy for you to use this as a global dump, @Pilgrimsmaster. )

So what do I meant with “Universal Access”?
One single implant which can allow me to get access to multiple distinct RFID access control systems which are based on ID or NDEF alone.
Technically VivoKey and other solutions will allow us to reach that… but only when (and if) all the access control systems get updated to use that.

So how do I see this “magical” implant?

First challenge is the frequency. You need to allow both HF and LF to be used to access your chip.
Here we have multiple possible approaches, from dual-antennas to dual-chip a chip that automatically adjusts itself based on the frequency received.
So I’m not that bothered with it.

Then comes the response, Which needs to emulate the protocol and ID of other chips…
We already do have chips and systems very close to doing that. To the point we could easily think of a chip which we could pre-program to reply as either a HF ntag216 or as a LF T5577. Or even go dual-chip again.

So the Main challenge remaining… how to make it so that the chip knows that the LF on my flat door must reply ID AAAA, but the LF on my uni is BBBB and the LF at work is CCCC?? This is the main bit that has not been addressed yet.
Then I start daydreaming about a small enough GSM chip which could make one roughly accurate GPS call (potentially really requiring a secondary antenna) when near the reader’s field. Once it gets the response, it could match it against a table containing:

  • GPS coordinate
  • radius
  • response protocol
  • response ID/NDEF

So using an app I could edit that table to say "within 1 mile of my job, reply as this protocol with that ID, Within 1/2 mile of my Uni, reply like this other protocol/ID… and in any other (default) case, reply with this other ID (my home one)

Of course a GPS approach might cause too much delay, and have issues with size/antenna/necessary energy input…
Overall feels “just out of reach” at the moment…
But as I dubbed it, this is a place for dreaming with “almost there” chip tech! :wink:

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Wont happen, we should just emulate cards. God I hope NXP gives us a P71 unlocked with changable UID etc so it can legit behave like every HF implant.

I believe that there should be enough factors to distinguish at least some different readers. I don’t believe that every readers field is the same. E.g. a high power and a low power field should be distinguishable.

self derail

Maybe the hardware isn’t perfect and produces a field slightly off frequency.
Or maybe the chip can sense how the field changes when you approach it. With such tech you could also have different gestures to run different code :o

The nearest cell tower maybe…? That’s how I plan to let my phone (de)activate wifi automatically.

My bet/hope: before the awesome chip(s) come, your company and home will use proper access control, so we can just install an applet and enroll ourselves.

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So here’s something I don’t understand why we haven’t figured out yet… I’m sure there’s an explanation I just don’t understand it yet

Why can’t we set up a chip to spit out multiple uids?

Probably some like

Presents to reader
Chip powers up
Uid 1
Chip resets
Uid 2
Chip resets
Uid 3 chip resets
Etc

All taking less than a second still

Only things that pops to mind is,
The reader might activate a spam brute force protection

And you are now giving a single reader all of your various uids, leaking more data than needed

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Oh, I totally agree!
that’s what my “and if” was there for!! :sweat_smile:
Although wee could well see the rise of a new “Bluetooth-like” or “USB-like” protocol for commercial grade RFID access control systems when they become more mainstream… (I can dream, can’t I?) :yum:

Yep… so close, yet so far…

Also an interesting approach. Might require an NFC phone with an app to calibrate, though… and has many things which might interfere, but this might be a good approach to investigate.

I feel like this would require more power from the implant…
But you might be onto something here! just identifying the presence of a specific WiFi network might work.

[EDIT: Accidentally posted mid-writing]

Technically we can.

But that approach would fail when a reader only takes the first ID and then stops reading cards for X amount of time (One reader at work)

This gets worst with secure systems which might disable a reader for X time if they are presented too many IDs in fast succession.

Also could find issues with miss reads… :slightly_frowning_face:

Also this:

But ultimately it’s mainly because chips are designed to be placed in key cards/fobs… so the practicality which would only add value for an implant use-case are never developed :sob:

I hope so, but honestly don’t see that happening anytime before 5+ years. :confused:

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Thought about that, but I thought the water in the skin would block WiFi and bluetooth.

Maybe a covid vax cert for smartcard IDs will push the tech.

I read it, had the exact same thoughts then you crushed my hopes in this edit :smiley:
I guess there’s a similar thing tho’. If there is a protocol where the reader announces who/what he is first, and another where the chip talks first, we can have a 2 in one. Okay on the side of “reader talks first” we could have multiple already…

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It does block 2.4Ghz. I can only bet the same is true for 5Ghz…
And most likely with any GSM based option as well, to be fair.

I’m just stretching a bit the limits of our tech as entertainment and… an exercise on hope? :sweat_smile:

Yeah, something like that might be easier to implement on larger scale than something API-based. (Based only on people’s fears)

That is a fair point!

I sure hope you hit the ball on that one!

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I’m sure it would still work. The human body just attenuates the signal it does not block it. You could probably get away with identifying an accesspoint you’ll just need a better antenna which means a x-series would be out of the question.

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Your polymorph implant idea violates the KISS principle. There is already a system within you that knows where it is, which readers needs which reply and needs no batteries, and that’s your brain. The simplest way of getting the right ID to the right reader is to implant several different transponders and let your brain pick which arm / hand / bit of hand to present to the reader - which is what people are already doing.

And yes, microwaves don’t travel well through water.

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Is there any known non-theoretical experiment with this anyone is aware of?

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I got you! Please know, I did not vet these for sources or anything, take from them what you want. It looks like your intestines have more of an effect than your fat.

Also found a novel study to transmit radio waves USING your body.

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/wcmc/2017/5842310/

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Those are some interesting, and refreshing, reads!

I also ran a simple experiment last night:

Got my mate’s wifiHD inside a plastic bag. Sealed it.
Put it inside a bucket and filled with water.
Kept it at the centre. roughly 20cm water in all directions

Read and Write speeds registered were the same while inside or outside the bucket.

So… despite water resonating very well within the 2.4Ghz frequency I guess you need more water volume than we’ll find within the human body between an implant and outside to really kill it.

(of course this is just a preliminary test, not a thorough study)

It should reduce the range, though, but for this purpose I guess it should still be viable.

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Nothing like science with other peoples stuff

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Especiallly when it’s a HD full of precious childhood memories that can go awry if the bag ain’t properly sealed? :sweat_smile:

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To get some real numbers you could probably use a Linux laptop and wifi tool like Kismet to monitor the signal intensity before and after submersion.

edit: I have never actually used Kismet before today but damn if it isn’t a neat and easy to use tool.

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Technically, a more valid (and quite stupid) test would be to put a PoC device on your mouth, close it and get your hand on top of the lips, then run the tests.

Can’t see any access control implantable being dug in deeper layers than the thickness of your Cheeks.

Kismet is a neat tool indeed!
And I mostly only have linux here… :sweat_smile:
Anything else gets virtualised.

sidetracky:
My Linux desktop virtualised Macbook performs 3 to 4x better than my actual state of the art Macbook I have from work. (And my desktop also cost me 1/12th of the price tag from that macbook)

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I am not at all surprised.
The open source world is pretty amazing. My work laptop, personal laptop, and servers all run Linux with my desktop the only device that fouls the waters with windows.

Side note. There used to be forced updates with reboots on my work laptop… used to be.

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So “dream chip” that popped into my head earlier

Not sure if possible or feasible

A LF chip, that can be programmed by a nfc device (likely a phone)

Essentially a nEXT, but the nfc side can set the lf chips parameters

Would let you program it on the fly without needing to drag a proxmark around with you

Granted you would still need a prox to scan a brand new to you LF card, but a lot have the UID printed right on it

You could also have various credentials that you use periodically saved in your phone, and update the chip as you need

Just a thought hope and a wish

Alternatively, a proxmark3 built into a phone case is also acceptable

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If we’re talking hypothetical, mine would be a generic IC powered by a coil with several resonant frequencies (so it can be powered by fields of different frequencies) and enough oomph to modulate the field on the fly in software only.

Bootloader in ROM that waits for a stream of instructions to flash in EEPROM and execute at the next bootup by default.

LDR on one input line to force the chip to jump directly to the bootloader at bootup, to reflash if a strong light it shone on the implant - so that it’s always possible to recover it in case the custom code fucks up.

A few I/O lines to do other things, like sensors or blinkies.

In short, an unbrickable software-defined RFID tag that can work at any frequencies and implement any protocol - or do any other wildcat things I fancy.

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I’m pretty modest… I’d love to have a temperature-sensing chip that can be read by my phone (and ideally, without a proprietary app…), and I’d like a NeXT with blue blinkies on both ends (or a blue and a white one), that light up depending on if I use the LF or the HF part of it…
I know Amal is/was working one something like the first, and I’m totally clueless if something like the second is possible :smile:

Oh, and a flex-style chip embedded in a nice, decoratively-shaped Haworth silicone implant :smile:
Nah, that’s not really possible, I know… but would be cool to combine usability and aesthetics even more than already happening with the blinkies.

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I’d be up for one of those, but I would swap the NTAG 216 out for a MagicNTAG or Magic S50 ( since we are dreaming :thought_balloon: , it would be a gen2 that would couple with my a phone for reading / writing, and also whilst still dreaming :thought_balloon:, @darthdomo would also have an LF antenna /reader designed into his Pinephone case and an app that would work across both LF and HF chips) :seedling:

SURVEY Multi-purpose xSeries implant!

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