Naming convention for implant locations EXPANDED

[Pilgrimsmaster]

Due to the many and varied implant locations that have been used by the community members, there has been a “need” for more locations to be added to the current naming conventions info post.
Recently this has been highlighted in another post, these posts have been placed below.

Amal has a lot on his plate at the moment, So if the community can follow Amals borrowed convention,

I simply modeled the way dentists talk about teeth in the mouth, and concluded the following should suffice…
First, a prefix of L or R for Left or Right. Next, a number to specify the position.

We can expand on this, and do the Lions share of the work, so that Amal can decide and adopt which of the suggestions to incorporate into the original naming conventions post when he has time to do so.

See below and add your suggestions
Make sure they follow :-
Logic
Current convention
Simple

Have at it…

[Eriequiet]

We should expand on the number location to include forearm and wrist

[Vicarious]

I would like to have L-1 and R-1 added to the locations list.
Inner edge of the hand, next to the thumb metacarpal bone.

[Eriequiet]

Are you writing that as negative one?
If so it make sense, but how do we make sure people don’t confuse a

R “hyphen” 1 and a R “negative” 1

Food for thought as I was looking at the standard array

1 through 5 have a decent amount of variance in distance from the wrist

Could make this a R1 and a R1.5

@Pilgrimsmaster
Hey didn’t meant to start a derail, can you split this off with my second or Amal’s first comment, feels like a valid conversation

“Expanding the numbered locations”

[amal]

i’m going to update the locations post with more stuff but for now i stole that image

Naming convention for implant locations in the hand

[Eriequiet]

Which image?

[amal]

read the thread and find out!

[Eriequiet]

Already saw, and that’s fair lol

[amal]

@Eriequiet

Food for thought as I was looking at the standard array

1 through 5 have a decent amount of variance in distance from the wrist

Could make this a R1 and a R1.5

just my thoughts… the position is basically anywhere between those metacarpals… everyone’s hand and bones are different lengths but for the most part everyone has those two bones side by side so there’s not really a good reason to attempt to define distal/proximal position between those bones… just that its between those bones is all. in reality the installer should choose a position that allows the most comfortable space, and that’s typically going to be nearer the knuckles.

[Eriequiet]

Yea, the more I thought about it that seems too much

[non-bin]

DO NOT USE THIS YET, IT IS A WORK IN PROGRESS LOOKING FOR FEEDBACK

Hi, so I think it’s important to get this right. People will keep using this standard, because - not to be blunt or anything but - @Amal is a f**king genius, and everyone will remember him in the future of implantables. I think a system like this should be ahead of what people want to use it for, not behind.

My geeral formula is Side Position Number Modifier

Side (Left, Right)
Position (Wrist, Forearm, Upper arm, Palm¹, Pad of finger¹, Dorsal, Tip of finger etc. Omit for numbered dorsal positions)
Number (Optional sometimes eg LD, RW, RP)
Modifier (Palmar, Dorsal, Radial, Ulner, Proximal², Distal. Optional)

Examples:
L0 - Left-hand position 0
RD - Right dorsal (back of the hand)
LF1 - Left forearm position 1 (1 quarter towards the elbow)
L7R - Left 7 radial (around from 7 towards the thumb 90 degrees)

I’ve expanded the back of the hand with this:

As well as clarifications on positions 4, 5 , and 11

And moved up the arm. This continues with U0-U3 on the upper arm (love 0 indexing)

Modifiers

Palmar, Dorsal, Radial, Ulnar, Proximal² and Distal can be used as suffixes to change where around the finger/arm(/head?) the position is

for example:

• the knife-edge of the pinkie in the middle would be 15U
• the pad of the index finger would be 17P

My question

is how to number the palmer side

Here are my two ideas:
A: P second, as a modifier. Consistent with the dorsal numbering

B: P first, as a position. More intuitive

I haven’t drawn them but the tips of the fingers (as far distal as you can go) would also be affected by this: the tip of the index would be 17D with A, or T1 with B

They both have their merits, and will probably both be used, but what do you think?

• A: P second, as a modifier. Consistent with the dorsal numbering
• B: P first, as a position. More intuitive
• Depends on the context, just give people the option

Another thing I decided arbitrarily was what to call the distal phalanx of the thumb, should it come before or after the middle phalanges?

• 12
• 16

We could use 6 - 10 to refer to each finger, then Proximal, Middle & Distal for each section (eg. 7M vs 12)

• Number everything
• Modifier galore

Final Notes

I know a lot of these positions are useless right now, but the current system only has 6 - 10 as an afterthought when I know many people have implants there, there’s no name for 12 - 15 where I’m getting a flexLED, and no names for pads of fingers, which are common places for sensing magnets. Having more figured out can’t hurt (too much)

¹ Palmer and pad of the finger essentially mean the same thing so the ambiguity is ok
² Proximal would have to be shortened to Pr, although I actually can’t think of any uses for it

[APartOfMe]

My thoughts on this: we definitely need to expand the list, but it should still be kept fairly simple. While I love the completeness of your solution, it’s likely going to be completely overwhelming for new people. I think the best way to solve this would be to find a balance between the current list and yours. Alternatively, we could leave the current list as-is as to not overwhelm people, and then have a “advanced position naming” drop-down in the post or something and put this list in there.

@non-bin

is how to number the palmer side

I would say it’s probably best to use P second. People will tend to use P first to refer to the position itself without specifying a hand. “P1P” would mean position 1 on the palmer side. If we put the P first, it could also get confusing.

@non-bin

We could use 6 - 10 to refer to each finger, then Proximal, Middle & Distal for each section (eg. 7M vs 12)

Modifiers will definitely be easier to remember and understand - especially for newer people - while still being just as descriptive.

[amal]

I agree the list should be refined and expanded, and I like the positions outlined in your drawings, however I firmly believe the list should remain numbered with no modifiers except R and L for right and left.

I think 0-5 should remain as-is however we could venture to reassign 6+ … so 11 could become 6 for example, then 6-10 jog up one and 11 goes on the pinky finger, then 12 on the thumb and jog the rest… then we adjust from there.

Thoughts?

[Satur9]

I strongly protest the “current” position 5 because it doesn’t exist. Position 4 is the entire knife edge, end of story.

So the first bone in your thumb would become 5, and only the middle phalanges (12+) up would need to be jogged down one.

#5isnotreal

[amal]

@Satur9

I strongly protest the “current” position 5 because it doesn’t exist. Position 4 is the entire knife edge, end of story.

hahah oh but it is real… I have an x-series in position 4 and very much not on the knife edge at all… which would be 5. The entire reason I came up with it as a position is because of this kind of thing… when I place my hand flat on the table, position 4 is very clearly still on top of the hand, closer to the pinky metacarpal. Position 5 is firmly on the side / knife edge, closer to the beginning of the palmar side of the hand.

[Satur9]

Well that’s nice for you

Position 4 is the entire knife edge. In the one or two times in history where that is going to matter at all the implantee can just say “top” or “bottom” of knife edge.

Lots of people could only ever fit one RFID tag there, no matter the form factor. My pinkie metacarpal is my knife edge. There’s basically no meat.

[amal]

haha! well, more importantly, when I put my hand down on the table with the knife edge flat down, hand sitting perpendicular to the table, position 4 is not “touching” the table surface… if you know what i mean. #fathands

[Satur9]

I’m not disparaging meaty people or trying to be sone kind of reference man. I just think being concise and simplifying as much as possible is beneficial to avoid confusion. People regularly get confused about 4 and 5 for obvious reasons. Why bother when the alternative is so much more elegant.

[amal]

ok sure i can see the logic… fine… we can do away with the distinction… it’s the same amount of confusion either way

[Satur9]

@amal

… it’s the same amount of confusion either way

rriiiggghhhtttt