Things that can go wrong during/after installation

Lounge
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Hi all,

I have been doing quite a bit of research on getting a walletmor, and I am interested in understanding the risks/how risky this is. I understand that it is not particularly risky, but even so, I feel it is good to understand the possible bad stuff and how likely it is.

I currently have the walletmor, and hopefully I’ll get a LAKS mini, too.

I have referred to this document for inspiration: https://dangerousthings.com/wp-content/uploads/Professional-Guide-to-2x12mm-transponder-installation.pdf but also various other sources from dangerousThings and walletmor.

I would like to put the walletmor in L3 since you have to align the chip with the terminal and L0 feels awkward to do whenever I simulate it. This is also the location suggested by walletmor if I understand correctly.

What can go wrong during and after the installation from a medical standpoint? I note that the installation itself can be performed improperly (too downward): Examples of problematic installations

But I also wonder: there are two major nerves in the hand and several veins. What happens if these are severed? Are the installers intentionally avoiding them for the entry point? The spots chosen in videos seems to be on convenience. However, nobody on the forums seems to have incurred long term nerve damage except one (lost sensation above implant), that I found.

Nobody seems to have had issue with damaging tendons/synovial sheaths which seems positive, but is probably in my mind one of the biggest risks.

There is always infection, but that seems obvious.

I would be interested in people’s thoughts and experiences.

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First things first - I’m not a doctor, so take everything with a grain of salt, but I’ve got some experience with needles, scalpels and other funny stuff.

This depends A LOT on who is doing the install… :wink:
The risks you mention can be mitigated by letting someone do it who is experienced and routined in the field of surgery or bodymod - a self install is definitely not a good idea when a scalpel is involved (in general).

It would be pretty bad if they were severed, but that’s something that would be extremely unlikely if the installer knows what they’re doing. What happens is that some of the little veins get poked, that’s why it bleeds, but that’s something your body can usually handle on its own - though you shouldn’t take things like blood thinners before, obviously. And some of the little nerves might get hurt or irritated as well, and they might need some time to heal, but they do. I was one of the persons who had a numb spot above the flexNExT, and one of my actually pretty standard p0-glassies had a tingling sensation for a while. Both of that went away after some time, though to be honest, nerve damage requires patience.

Both (good) surgeons and (good) bodmod artists know how to avoid that. I have a subdermal implant on my wrist, sitting directly above the tendons, as well as a scarification that has one of its main lines running directly along the big, blue vein you can see on your forearm - no problems with any of that. It was a strange feeling to have someone poke around in my wrist, and I was a bit nervous about my tendons as well (was my first implant after all), but those people know what they’re doing. Go to a pro, and you’re most likely safe :wink:

Infections can always happen, as you wrote yourself, as well as rejection - take good care of yourself, go to the doc / bodymodder if somethings looks or feels really odd, and you can reduce the risks a lot.

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Thank you for your insightful reply :slight_smile:

I think I probably will not self install, but will either get my semi-experienced friend or a pro to do it. I got the impression that it is frowned upon here to so. I actually phoned somewhere near to me that was reccomended by walletmor and they refused, saying that it’s too much of a pain, essentially (long time to install, fiddly, not able to use scalpel). That surprised me.

Anyway, good point, I didn’t consider about blood thinners - aspirin would be a notable one to accidentally take.

The other person I noticed with (perm) numbness with a flexNExT was here: Numb skin above a Titan implant - #7 by anon3825968

Would you mind telling me about the install process? It’s massive… I assume you had to get someone with a scalpel? Does it still work? I see they discontinued it because of a high failure rate.

That’s cool about the scarification - I have never seen someone with this IRL, but I’d like to haha.

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You probably wont get a reply from him, but yes, it was an install with a scalpel by Lassi in Finland.

Are you in western Europe?

Arnuf in Cologne Germany may also be an option for you.

Both guys come highly recommended

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“Frowned upon” might not be the right thing to say, it’s rather “warned against”, especially when it comes to flex-style implants. It’s plain dangerous.
First, you need some sort of pain management (a few people managed to do without, but I don’t think that’s a good idea for someone not experienced in such things…). A self-install of a flexy in the hand or forearm is close to impossible, because you might need both hands for doing it. And about letting a friend do it - lemme say I’ve got several friends, but only very few of them would be allowed near me with a scalpel :wink:
Jokes aside, you need surgical practice for that. Not only because you need know where to cut and how to handle a dermal elevator and such, but even more because you need to know how to work as sterile as possible. Setting up a sterile field and avoiding cross-contamination is not an easy thing - I mean, technically it is easy, but I’ve seen tons of people instinctively doing things wrong (best example was: putting sterile gloves on, but checking the phone afterwards :woman_facepalming: ).

Aspirin, alcohol, caffeine and several not-so-legal and / or medical substances. Best thing is to have a good breakfast, drink enough water or tea or juice and keep all the other stuff reduced to the minimum :wink:

I went to my treasured bodmod artist (Arnulf in Cologne, Pilgrim already mentioned him :wink: ). He marked the placement, cleaned everything and did the usual bodmod-pre-procedures, then he made a pretty big cut on the knife edge of my hand and used some dermal elevators to separate the skin. It’s quite a rough feeling…
When the pocket was done, he gently pushed the implant into it, slightly pushed air and blood out of the pocket and sewed it shut. The procedure itself went smoothly and took maybe 10-15 minutes (didn’t watch the clock, and I have a really bad sense of time in such situations). But it is a serious surgery… I posted this picture before, but just so you don’t have to search: This is how it looked like.

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Not something I’d entrust one of my (other^^) friends with :wink:
And no, it doesn’t work any more because I had to get it out after a while. But it was an interesting experiment for sure :slight_smile:
If you search for the flexNExT in this forum, you’ll find some more install pictures and experiences :wink:

One thing that might be important to know - where are you from? I know the laws on this vary wildly, so it might be easy to find a pro where you live or near impossible… maybe you’ll have to travel a bit.

Okay, since we tend to derail threads in this forum - here you are, these are my two scars. Guess there will be more, but for now it’s just those two :wink:

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I just want to add to this. While you may feel up to the task, things can turn very quickly if you’re not experienced with the process.

I don’t intend to laugh at James’ misfortune doing a self uninstall, but as someone who was getting things installed by a professional, I can relate to the first few steps of high confidence until you actually start and see blood/your insides and the nausea/lightheadedness takes over.

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I am in London currently (which usually is a place where you can find anything your heart desires, but not in this scenario, it seems!). I can travel, so I will definetly visit Arnulf in Cologne if I need scalpel work (seems he comes highly reccomended), thanks for the suggestion :slight_smile:

WRT to the scarification, that is awesome! I love how it’s done like PCB trace, and it’s also over an RFID tag if I understand correctly. I don’t have enough confidence to do something like that myself, haha. Thanks for sharing your implant story, that was very helpful/insightful.

@CoreySpondant noted. Holy moly that is quite the story, and a great cautionary tale as to why you might not want to self install (or at least should have a buddy there). It’s kindof unbelievable to read. Most likely, I won’t be self installing, but I would guess I’d be less likely to pass out as I used to self harm and I don’t recall ever feeling lightheaded. But perhaps that’s hubris

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There’s a trove of information regarding the Vasovagal response, and it shouldnt be ignored. Some people react differently but i would reccomend reading up on it. Ive self installed 2 implants myself, with the last being the most difficult and risky. I would not reccomend self installs for the first install as you have so many new experiences occuring all at once. You may mistake your nerves and anxiety going high for a vasovagal response and it can snowball quickly.

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I quite agree, I shared my story to help/encourage others make a more informed decision and to think about their ability/competence/disposition more than I did.

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Super awesome of you to do so.

As this seems like an appropriate place to share another story, and I’m sure @DrinkABeard wont mind me linking it for the same reason

all this to say this is not something that should deter you but just to provide you with information so you can go in fully prepared.

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My first install was from a… Cough…bartender and it didn’t go well as you’d imagine XD
Looked like I was passed out at the bar at 10am cuz the guy hit a bone with the needle, and I was hungover on an empty stomach, the vasovagal syncope was in full effect! I have since learned, got a pro to install 4 implants, and now I know to eat, drink (healthy) fluids, and make sure everything is set up for the entire process. I’ve installed 3 myself with no issue, but that’s after I got a pro to install and learn from those, prior mistakes, and reading from other’s mistakes lol

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You might be talking about me and the flexnext. If so then I’d like to add that this is not uncommon for large flexes and the touch does come back (after a year or so).
When carving a large pocket like the one needed for large flexes you are inevitably cutting through most of the nerve endings that innervate that area of skin and similarly for blood vessels.
Thankfully both grow back. It just seems that nerve endings take a while to re-innervate an area when a big slab of polymer is separating it from the underlying flesh, which makes sense.
I should also add that when the flex is removed the process is much faster (I removed mine and replaced it with a much smaller apex a couple weeks ago and everything is back to normal already).

Most of what we do here is very superficial. I’ve hit small veins before which is inconvenient but not the end of the world. When making a large pocket you can see the tendons and muscles on the bottom but you only do careful lifting motions so unless you trip you’re not touching them. With injectors you do the same by tenting the skin.
In general there’s a natural division between the skin and the rest (mostly fat) that needles and tools tend to slide in and going any deeper requires force.

I usually take antibiotics after anything larger than a cm, especially if the install was dodgy. But I know some on this forum are against it.

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I am one against broadform antibiotics. Only if an infection is present will I get antibiotics. I couldn’t recommend it as a preventative step.

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I agree. Every time a person takes antibiotics, it’s
forcing the evolution of tens or hundreds of potentially harmful strains of bacteria, making the antibiotic less effective against them. The few bacteria that survive the regimen will take over the biome left wide open by those that were selected out by the antibiotic… vastly proliferating the more resistant mutants.

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Thanks @Pilgrimsmaster - that is definitely useful (and also an interesting read). Seems vasovagal response is more of a concern than I even considered (I would never have thought to include it in my original list).

@Az_F I linked the other person, and it wasn’t you, so I guess I can add one to the list ahah. That said, the consensus seems to be (including your case) that the most likely case is that over time the likely outcome is that things go back to normal, which is reassuring. You pre-acquired antibiotics? I think that would be difficult/impossible here in the uk.

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I go to my doctor the same day. Usually I don’t even have to ask they recommend taking them just in case.
Of course you shouldn’t do that regularly, I’ve only done it like 3 times over a few years.

(I’m in France so maybe things are different in the UK. It’s still worth it to see a doctor though , if you ask nicely they will give you an xray too :smirk:)

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More people need to be aware of superbugs and our contribution to their evolution.

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I think if you want something and are willing to pay for it, you can pretty much get anything.

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Don’t buy random pills on ebay though :rofl:

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